got bit by Power Factor !

[Mike90250]

Yes. it is a trend in the small generator market, that the smaller machines (and likely the larger ones too) are going to be rated much closer to their operational limits, than traditional generators. Gotta be a trade-off between an old 3Kw alternator @ 160 lbs and a new 3Kw alt @ 60 lbs. When you take away lots of copper and steel, you also loose the margins (and flywheel effect) that mass supplies.
ST head info:

http://utterpower.com/ST.htm

http://utterpower.com/ST_manual.pdf

[DanS26]

Soft start is not my issue. The generator is incapable of powering loads AND heavy battery charging simultaneously, because the loads (pump) have poor power factor and rob the generator of capacity. When the PF goes bad, the AC waveform deteriorates and then the Protector shuts the pump off. If I cancel battery charging, then the 3Kw generator has enough headroom to run a 1Kw (1/2hp) pump. My other generator is a beefy wound antique and runs charger and loads just fine.

Well, it sounds like you have a decision to make......scrap the Pumptec or buy a better generator. Seems like a simple choice to me.

[DanS26]

Thank you for this link and information. I went back to Franklin-Electric again, and typed in "Pumptec" and got "No Results" again, even though you can see the Franklin Electric logo on the documents included on the pump warehouse site. Do you have any idea why that is? I have to say that after trying to conduct on-line research about companies like Franklin and Grounfos, it seems they'd rather have their teeth pulled than provide information about their products.

These are old line companies......sell through plumbing distributors. They seem to not know that an electronic revolution is going on around them.

It's just a matter of time before a Chinese, Indian, or Korean company will eat their lunch.

By the the way, I have a Pumptec......good product but way overpriced in their old line supply chain.

[MichaelK!]

Franklin Pump Protectors:

http://www.thepumpwarehouse.com/group.asp?grp=195

The Pumptec line of pump protectors from Franklin Electric are computer-based pump/motor protection devices which monitor load and power conditions to provide superior protection.

Thank you for this link and information. I went back to Franklin-Electric again, and typed in "Pumptec" and got "No Results" again, even though you can see the Franklin Electric logo on the documents included on the pump warehouse site. Do you have any idea why that is? I have to say that after trying to conduct on-line research about companies like Franklin and Grounfos, it seems they'd rather have their teeth pulled than provide information about their products.

[Mike90250]

Soft start is not my issue. The generator is incapable of powering loads AND heavy battery charging simultaneously, because the loads (pump) have poor power factor and rob the generator of capacity. When the PF goes bad, the AC waveform deteriorates and then the Protector shuts the pump off. If I cancel battery charging, then the 3Kw generator has enough headroom to run a 1Kw (1/2hp) pump. My other generator is a beefy wound antique and runs charger and loads just fine.

[DanS26]

Mike, have you investigated a "soft start"? Try the guys at Hyper Engineering in Indiana they may be able to help.

ps site will not let me post a link

[DanS26]

Mike, have you considered or investigated a "soft start"?

These guys know their stuff and may be able to help:

http://www.hypereng.com/

[Mike90250]

Nope, your photo is of a standard starter which nearly always includes the overload.

http://www.franklinwater.com/media/116153/M1409-Pumptec-Family-Brochure-01-14_WEB.pdf

Franklin Pump Protectors:

http://www.thepumpwarehouse.com/group.asp?grp=195

The Pumptec line of pump protectors from Franklin Electric are computer-based pump/motor protection devices which monitor load and power conditions to provide superior protection. They monitor and diagnose motor load to prevent pump or motor failure due to adverse conditions such as low-flow wells, pump damage, clogging, bound pump, or power mishaps.

[MichaelK!]

It's a box from Franklin called Pump Protector. it's also an electronic starting module that you cannot play with a start cap.

Now I went to the Franklin Electric website, and found no reference at all to a "pump protector". Are you actually referring to what Franklin calls their "motor control box"? Does it look like this?
BTW, the "main overload" I referred to in the post above is that black cylinder in the photo directly under the L1 wire.

[Mike90250]

It's a box from Franklin called Pump Protector. it's also an electronic starting module that you cannot play with a start cap.
The circuit detects running dry (too light of a load) closed valve / ice in the line (overload) and likely some over/under voltage stuff. When the power factor gets wonky, the box just shuts the pump off.

[MichaelK!]

yesterday, my pump would not stay running, the Motor Protector circuit kept shutting it off after 20 seconds.

Exactly what are you referring to when you talk about the "motor protection circuit". Are you referring to what Franklin Electric calls their "Main Overload" (part number 27511115)? I know you made the same reference to a response you gave me about my well pump.

[Mike90250]

It's a pretty simple basic alternator, and the pump has .76 PF. The Protector/Control box cannot tolerate any added capacitors, so I'm going to have to run within the limits,
now that I know what they are. The big ST alternator on the lister genset has a squirly waveform from the harmonic winding, but everything is happy with it, but the garage door opener. ( discussion about the windings in the head here http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?topic=1833.0 )
4" single phase 3 wire 1/2 hp in the chart

[jflorey2]

Be warned that some generators (and inverters) will not tolerate any deviation from PF of 1.0 in the capacitive direction. The spec of PF = .8 really should be PF = .8 inductive for completeness.

That's a very important point, and I would add that a capacitor bank that brings a motor back to a PF of ~1 while operating may result in a capacitive load during startup of the motor. In addition, induction motor power factor often changes with mechanical load, so (for example) refrigerator power factor may change as refrigerant pressures change.

[Sunking]

2. Generator is specified at 5kW/5400kVA at; .8PF. If the generator has a lot of electronics, it could be telling you that the output will be unstable if loaded down with a PF lower than .8 no matter how low the total power is.
Real life will be somewhere in between these two limiting cases, and it is very difficult to tell where it lands based only on the specs on the line card for the product.
Your safest bet is to assume that you are operating under condition 2 and add PF correction capacitors downstream of the pump controller so that they are switched in and out with the motor.
Be warned that some generators (and inverters) will not tolerate any deviation from PF of 1.0 in the capacitive direction. The spec of PF = .8 really should be PF = .8 inductive for completeness.

I suspect that is what is going on as reflected in my response. I would bet the genny he has is a PF = .8 with a Electronic Regulator throwing fits with something lower then .8PF

[inetdog]

Mike,

There are two ways that the PF can interact with the generator capability:

1. Generator is specified, for example, at 5kW, and 5400kVA at .8 PF. That can be telling you that the generator can produce the current corresponding to 5400kVA but the prime mover can only generate 5kW of real power continuously. In that case you could load it up with 2kW at a PF of .6 and still stay within both the total current and total real power limitations. If the generator were a rotating permanent magnet with no variable field or electronic voltage regulation that is a possibility. OR
2. Generator is specified at 5kW/5400kVA at; .8PF. If the generator has a lot of electronics, it could be telling you that the output will be unstable if loaded down with a PF lower than .8 no matter how low the total power is.
Real life will be somewhere in between these two limiting cases, and it is very difficult to tell where it lands based only on the specs on the line card for the product.
Your safest bet is to assume that you are operating under condition 2 and add PF correction capacitors downstream of the pump controller so that they are switched in and out with the motor.
Be warned that some generators (and inverters) will not tolerate any deviation from PF of 1.0 in the capacitive direction. The spec of PF = .8 really should be PF = .8 inductive for completeness.