LED or CFL ?

[russ]

Like it or not, we have to change most of the 4' lamps to LED Tubes. They brighter than the old 4' tubes and use less than half the electricity. They are still expensive though.

Where did you learn that Paul? It is not correct.

[paulcheung]

Which part is not correct? the brighter part? if is the brighter part. I have them side by side. the led tube is brighter and it use 18watts compare to 40watts the regular tubes.

[russ]

Which part is not correct? the brighter part? if is the brighter part. I have them side by side. the led tube is brighter and it use 18watts compare to 40watts the regular tubes.

You have two lamps from whatever manufacturer and make sweeping statements. Typically today the small diameter tube lamp t5 tube lamp is the most efficient.

You can find all kinds of colors and intensities.

[OvertheSun]

Someone has been drinking the Kool-Aid.

I think some of the older bulbs were sold before they were ready for prime time and have given LEDS a bad name. We got some older Phillips bulbs from SDG&E that were terrible - low light, ugly, heavy. But the newer bulbs are much better. Just like solar, you have to look at quality. I have several different types and brands that work really well, and returned ones that were no good.
I looked into some different manufacutrers and started with a company that targets commercial sales, primarily retail stores - Lighting Science. If they fail for their customers, I reasoned that it would be apparent more quickly because retail lighting is on longer than most household's. LS is still in business selling to reail stores and the bulbs get very good reviews. The ones I have are Definity BR30 14W 4100K. The light is very white, but not blue like a CFL, and much brighter than the 65W incandescent bulbs they replace. This bulb is rated at 844 lumens. I have most on dimmers so i can choose the amount of light I get. You have to use compatible dimmers. These also come in 2700, 3000, and 5000K, so if you like the color of incandescent bulbs, you can choose 2700. They are expensive ($30 or more per bulb) and you can't buy them at Home Depot or Walmart. Another thing i looked for was the beam angle, which tells you how much the light spreads. These have 120 degree beam angle, which works well in my overhead can lights. If you get bulbs with a 20 or 40 degrees spread, they are going to be more like a spot light. Finally, the appearance of the bulb was important to me. Most LEDs have strange looking heat sinks that i didn't like. The definity bulbs have a diffuser that wraps around the exposed end so the part you can see doesn't look any different than an incandescent bulb. I've been replacing these room by room starting about a year age, and now have them in 35 can lights and I have not had one fail. They have a 5 year warranty if they do.
I also have the new Cree 60 and 40 W bulbs that you can buy at Home Depot. Cree has been making LED chips for many years and their chips are considered high quality in the electronics industry, but they are relatively new in consumer lighting. I have 2700k bulbs in 8 table lamps and 2 ceiling fans and you can't tell the difference between those and IC bulbs. There's a dark spot at the very end where you can see are no chips if you look directly at the bulb, but otherwise, they are omnidirectional. I also put the neodynium coated Cree bulbs in 4 lamps that I previously had 100 W Reveal incandescent bulbs in. Side by side, there is no difference in appearance. In another location where i wanted more light in an overhead fixture, I have the 60 W 5000k bulbs. They are much brighter than the 60 W soft white IC bulbs they replace. In general, the higher color temps produce more light. So if you want lots of light, get 4000, 5000, or even 6000k. Of you like the color of fluorescent light, you'll like 4000, 5000, or 6000 K.
I also have a MaxLite G40, 2700k that looks just like the bulb it replaces and gives as much light for 15 W instead of 90. That one was hard to find. I also just replaced the under cabinet lights in my kitchen with MaxLite plug and play light bars. These only save a few Watts compared to the fluorescents (24" linear tube bulbs) that they replace, but the light quality is much better, plus, they don't get as hot as the fluorescent fixtures did. The old ones got hot enough to melt chocolate if I kept it in the cabinet directly above the light.
There is no question that these were all more expensive than the lighting they replace, and there is a risk that they won't last as long as claimed and there are still some bulbs i can't find acceptable replacements for, like the 40 W candelabra bulbs I have in the antique crystal chandelier that belonged to my mother. But overall, I'm really pleased and have saved a ton of money. I'm in San Diego and the top rate here is 0.37 kWh (summer) and most of the savings have come off that top tier. Overall, the ROI is a couple months to a couple years depending on how much each of the bulbs is used.
So, all i can say is that you might want to try some of my Kool-aid.

[SunEagle]

Someone has been drinking the Kool-Aid.

LOLOLOLOL. I guess I'm one of those kool-aid drinkers.

Don't get me wrong. If I had to light up an office building my first, second and third choice would be the T5 fluorescent. They are still the best bang for your buck in light output, energy conservation and in some cases lamp life.

But even though the T5's will stay on top as the best light source for a while there are more and more companies going with LED fixtures in office areas. I believe Prudential up in Boston is retrofitting the offices with LED fixtures. There was also a city in South Florida that was switching out their HID street lights to LED fixtures. Even the Department of Energy has been researching and starting to lean toward more LED type lighting for retrofits. There is a growing trend toward using the LED as they get better and better.

LED's cost more up front but will use much less energy then most of all other types of lighting sources and therefor eventually pay for their costs. The big savings though is not the energy cost but the reduced labor to maintain them. Based on their longer life (what that might actually be is still being determined but still pretty long) companies are calculating a lot of labor hours saved but not having to replaced them. That is the main motivating factor and cost justification.

So for some people it is a matter of preference to stay with the incandescent and others with fluorescent but LED's are here to stay and will eventually become the major source of man made light used. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Now where's that kool-aid my cup is empty.

[inetdog]

You should experience the incandescent lamps we get here in India - the company pays the electric bill so guess who doesn't buy the more expensive CFL units. The average lamp may last one month with normal usage - some pop after a single day - they are cheap though.

Back in Chicago in the pre-1960 days, Con Edison would supply free light bulbs to residential customers. They were all 130V type, so people had to use higher wattage bulbs to get the same amount of light, but they lasted a long time.
I believe several analysts calculated that Con Ed was actually making money off the free light bulbs, based on the increased power consumption.

(PS: Free in the sense that you could trade in a burnt-out bulb for a new one.)

[bcroe]

Back in Chicago in the pre-1960 days, Con Edison would supply free light bulbs to residential customers. They were all 130V type, so people had to use higher wattage bulbs to get the same amount of light, but they lasted a long time.
I believe several analysts calculated that Con Ed was actually making money off the free light bulbs, based on the increased power consumption.
(PS: Free in the sense that you could trade in a burnt-out bulb for a new one.)

When I got a house in 71 near Chi, I started cashing in the max number of bulbs every
month. I still haven't run out, though there is a massive stock of newer replacements
in the attic. I don't recall, a need to bring back the old bulbs. Bruce Roe

[russ]

When I got a house in 71 near Chi, I started cashing in the max number of bulbs every
month. I still haven't run out, though there is a massive stock of newer replacements
in the attic. I don't recall, a need to bring back the old bulbs. Bruce Roe

Like to piss away power? That type of stockpiling has never made sense to me.

[bcroe]

Like to piss away power? That type of stockpiling has never made sense to me.

I certainly hope not to use them up in my lifetime. The original collection was before there were
any options, or the energy concerns. At this point, I expect to walk into any of my buildings
(which see 20 below 0 F) and see INSTANT response from the lighting. Some sockets are so
seldom used, I can hardly justify high cost bulbs. I can afford good light around all those seldom
accessed shelves, turn on that incandescent a few times a year. The lights that do the long
time work are all fluorescent, but I need the incandescents too until they get warmed up.

Incandescent are good for a lot of stuff. Need a big resistor, they are cheap & compact. I
love them for energy efficient bleeders on DC power supplies. High resistance hot, it drops
dramatically cold to quickly absorb the last stored energy. A great debugging tool, as I have
pictured here. Honestly, I consider the screw in "green" stuff to be total junk and a fire hazard.

Did I mention, incandescents can make good heaters? Bruce Roe

[russ]

I use incandescents for the stairs where they are on motion sensors - in Turkey the generally ignore the bans.

However, the ban has made the lamp companies develop newer and better.

[SunEagle]

I certainly hope not to use them up in my lifetime. The original collection was before there were
any options, or the energy concerns. At this point, I expect to walk into any of my buildings
(which see 20 below 0 F) and see INSTANT response from the lighting. Some sockets are so
seldom used, I can hardly justify high cost bulbs. I can afford good light around all those seldom
accessed shelves, turn on that incandescent a few times a year. The lights that do the long
time work are all fluorescent, but I need the incandescents too until they get warmed up.

Incandescent are good for a lot of stuff. Need a big resistor, they are cheap & compact. I
love them for energy efficient bleeders on DC power supplies. High resistance hot, it drops
dramatically cold to quickly absorb the last stored energy. A great debugging tool, as I have
pictured here. Honestly, I consider the screw in "green" stuff to be total junk and a fire hazard.

Did I mention, incandescents can make good heaters? Bruce Roe

I use to use a trouble light with a 60 watt bulb under a cardboard box over my water softener which was located in my garage. It kept the piping from freezing on those cold winter nights in NJ. Don't need to worry now that I'm in Florida.

[russ]

I use to use a trouble light with a 60 watt bulb under a cardboard box over my water softener which was located in my garage. It kept the piping from freezing on those cold winter nights in NJ. Don't need to worry now that I'm in Florida.

I remember placing one under the hood of the car and throwing a blanket over it for a bit of insulation - kept the oil from getting so thick you had no lubrication. A poor mans dip stick heater'which was a lousy thing as well.

[paulcheung]

You have two lamps from whatever manufacturer and make sweeping statements. Typically today the small diameter tube lamp t5 tube lamp is the most efficient.

You can find all kinds of colors and intensities.

You sure those T5 tubes are not LED base? The LED tube I got are slimmer then the older ones. the colors I use are day light, both the older fluorescent tube and the new LED tubes.

The Dealers in Jamaica who promote the LED lights all have the P3 killawatt meter install on the shelf they display the LED lights. they have the older lights and tubes comparing with new LED lights and tubes.

The bottom line is it work for me, they are brighter than the old tube I replaced and use less than half the electricity. they make me off grid possible with a little life style change of course.

Cheers.

[SunEagle]

You sure those T5 tubes are not LED base? The LED tube I got are slimmer then the older ones. the colors I use are day light, both the older florescent tube and the new LED tubes.

The Dealers in Jamaica who promote the LED lights all have the P3 killawatt meter install on the shelf they display the LED lights. they have the older lights and tubes comparing with new LED lights and tubes.

The bottom line is it work for me, they are brighter than the old tube I replaced and use less than half the electricity. they make me off grid possible with a little life style change of course.

Cheers.

No. There is a definite difference between a T5 fluorescent tube lamp and and LED tube lamp.

A few years ago I was the Project Manager in charge of installing over 200 fluorescent T5 fixtures in most of the warehouses for the company I use to work for. Before we went with the T5 I performed all of the calculations to compared specific lamps to determine which was the most cost effective type. While at that time there wasn't a big selection of LED tubes but I did compare them. The T5 won out hands over fist in all of the comparisons which is why they were installed.

Since that big project the LED technology being used to retrofit fluorescent lamp fixtures has gotten much lower in price and better in performance but in most cases the LED's still don't beat the T5.

But I also believe in the LED technology which is why over the past couple of years I have installed in my home 5 x 18 watt 4' LED tube lamps and 4 x 10 watt 2' LED tube lamps. Most of them were purchased off of eBay and Amazon and they were not cheap. The retrofit was relatively easy and they do put out a lot of light and I am very happy with their performance. I know the LED will continue to improve in lumens per watt performance as well as come down in cost. But for now the T5 is still the best you can do.

[russ]

The lamps for my bike and hand lamp (flash light) are LED. Same for night lights in the home. The lighting along our drive is LED.

I too like LED and expect them to be better and better in time to come.

Sun Eagle told the story of the T5 well.