Off-Grid Chiller Unit?

[tandrews]

Have you considered making a chimney lined with TEC/TEG/Peltier modules, using ambient air convection (or dc fan driven) over heatsinks for hot side cooling and your thermal mass as cold storage?
An Alternative could be water blocks thermosiphoned to an exposed baseboard rad (group) fitted outside near a roof.

Given your posts, this as DIY is not out of the question and it has the added benefit of being dead simple and reliable.
You may need to do some math to determine if the BTU adjustment to your thermal mass would be worthy of the effort, but if you are in the scenario where you have to choose where to dump 500w, you may as well adjust your cold storage downward via the simplest method, no?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aL_b39KsqVA

As reference to what I'm suggesting for differential.

See:

http://nano.ereuland.com/tec-cooling/

For some considerations, like potted modules and sizing.

[Naptown]

Well according to section 690 of the NEC, it's actually "shall be identified and listed for the application." I'd copy and paste definitions of these terms from the NEC for others to see, but my freebie online access version won't let me. In short, they describe an entity very much like UL. So yes, therein lies the rub. I appreciate your pointing me to the correct source.

(The Libertarians are looking better everyday!)

Rich, are there applicable UL certifications on solar thermal panels too?

Thermal panels are listed by SRCC a different entity entirely and actually would fall under the plumbing code. Now for most federal and state rebates they will require at minimum an OG100 rating.

Shall be identified and listed means that it must be labeled, tested, certified an listed for the application.

[HotFlash]

Arrrrrgh! Rich, it's not been a good day.

Tandrews, I've long been fascinated by the thermoelectric effect and used Peltier plates long ago for cold anesthesia (long story). I thought they might work well for dehumidification, heating, or cooling, but I found that they are extraordinarily inefficient. That said, what you say is true. If I've got a bunch ofoff-grid PV on the roof, storage becomes a difficult issue, and even inefficient thermal storage looks attractive. I would think the way to use Peltier plates would be to pass water over both sides -- thermal mass on one side, and the river loop on the other. Of course the plates themselves are also rather pricey. It's an interesting Plan B option, though.

Even so, I think I would get better efficiency by lumping all the panels together through a Sunny Boy and firing up the largest refrigerated chiller I can on clear sky days.

EDIT: Yeah, from the second link, I see about 1/3 the efficiency of a 10 SEER window unit in the author's setup. It would be better simply to use 1kW of panel to fire up a 500W A/C.

[Naptown]

Have I been raining on your parade?

[Sunking]

Well according to section 690 of the NEC, it's actually "shall be identified and listed for the application." I'd copy and paste definitions of these terms from the NEC for others to see, but my freebie online access version won't let me.

I can list any of it for you. NEC definition of LISTED is from article 100:

Listed.

Equipment, materials, or services included in a list published by an organization that is acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction and concerned with evaluation of products or services, that maintains periodic inspection of production of listed equipment or materials or periodic evaluation of services, and whose listing states that either the equipment, material, or service meets appropriate designated standards or has been tested and found suitable for a specified purpose.

[Sunking]

Even so, I think I would get better efficiency by lumping all the panels together through a Sunny Boy and firing up the largest refrigerated chiller I can on clear sky days.

EDIT: Yeah, from the second link, I see about 1/3 the efficiency of a 10 SEER window unit in the author's setup. It would be better simply to use 1kW of panel to fire up a 500W A/C.

Just how are you going to supply power to run these inverters? If they are grid tied inverters, they have to be connected to the grid, otherwise they shut off until commercial power returns.

If the panels you are producing more power than you are using, the excess goes to your neighbors. When your demand exceeds the panel output, the grid makes up for the short fall. You cannot direct where the power goes.

[HotFlash]

Rich, the Canon EOS 5D Mark III was announced today. MSRP of $3500, to be released late April. I want it. Unfortunately you (the cursed messenger) just added thousands to our equipment requirements. Oh the irony! Oh the humanity!

I appreciate the copy/paste, solarking. And yes, I forgot the Sunny Boys are grid-tied.

G'nite, guys! And thanks!

[tandrews]

WBA-5.75-1.15-AL-01_tec_700.jpg
From:

http://customthermoelectric.com/Water_blocks.html

...one example, easily replicated by an aluminum welder and some channel.
10x90-170W peltiers @ 5-20$ each (ebay)
Blast out maybe 1800 BTU/hr
Not near epic frost, but solid state.

Certainly put some bugs to sleep.

[HotFlash]

Tandrews, very nice. There's certainly no startup issue (as with mechanical). Worth considering.

I talked with our architect yesterday, and he thought there might be some "experimental device" provisions that would allow compliance with building and electrical codes. He's going to research it. As he put it, most of what he does isn't even addressed in the codes. Very innovative guy -- and very well respected in our area.

[russ]

I talked with our architect yesterday, and he thought there might be some "experimental device" provisions that would allow compliance with building and electrical codes.

Now you know the reason he is well liked - he threw the entire thing into never-never land which is where it will stay.

[HotFlash]

Now you know the reason he is well liked - he threw the entire thing into never-never land which is where it will stay.

HEHEHE Well, I said "respected," not "liked" -- although he IS liked too. He's so well respected because he overbuilds everything. I've seen several of his residences and commercial buildings, and they'll be standing after everything around them has crumbled and been blown/washed away. If we get a strong enough hurricane, I think it's possible only his two wings will remain of our house! Anyway, because he's so well respected, whatever he says to the county is "gold" and won't be questioned.

Of course meeting building/electrical codes and meeting insurance requirements might be two different things. I'm still investigating the insurance end. It's my impression that if it's approved by the county as being in compliance with code, it's good.

[Naptown]

HEHEHE Well, I said "respected," not "liked" -- although he IS liked too. He's so well respected because he overbuilds everything. I've seen several of his residences and commercial buildings, and they'll be standing after everything around them has crumbled and been blown/washed away. If we get a strong enough hurricane, I think it's possible only his two wings will remain of our house! Anyway, because he's so well respected, whatever he says to the county is "gold" and won't be questioned.

Of course meeting building/electrical codes and meeting insurance requirements might be two different things. I'm still investigating the insurance end. It's my impression that if it's approved by the county as being in compliance with code, it's good.

Is he also a PE in electrical engineering or mechanical engineering. An architectural license does not allow him to sign off or design systems like this. And even so they would have to meet the code as adopted by the local Jurisdiction having Authority.(AHJ or building department) They have the final say in the matter. Even if they sign off on something as having been inspected and approved if it is indeed not up to code your insurance company may still deny a claim based on the non-compliance if they find some code violation.

[HotFlash]

I discussed that with him. As you suggest, his area of training is structural engineering, not electrical. He does have a circle of other professionals he brings in for nonstructural issues. One of the jobs of an architect (IMO the most important job) is to orchestrate the various resources needed to bring a structure to completion. Most people think of architects as head-in-the-clouds drawers of pretty buildings. While those sorts of architects do exist, they're in the minority.

Still investigating the insurance end.

[Naptown]

I discussed that with him. As you suggest, his area of training is structural engineering, not electrical. He does have a circle of other professionals he brings in for nonstructural issues. One of the jobs of an architect (IMO the most important job) is to orchestrate the various resources needed to bring a structure to completion. Most people think of architects as head-in-the-clouds drawers of pretty buildings. While those sorts of architects do exist, they're in the minority.

Still investigating the insurance end.

Having been a construction professional all of my life I can tell you without question that those types of architects are the vast majority not the norm. Yours I believe is the exception I have only worked with one Architect that did their own structural calculations. The rest farmed them out to engineers.

[HotFlash]

Hmmmm... Dunno, perhaps times are a'changin'. Back in my dad's day (he was an architect and structural engineer -- died in the '70's), there were a good number of architectural/structural engineers, but I recall he was very much in demand for the work he did. Our architect has been in the business in a very long time. He's well into his 80's! So perhaps it's an "old school" thing.