Starting from scratch

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  • Daveyclimber
    Junior Member
    • Sep 2019
    • 7

    Starting from scratch

    I am building a modest cabin and a decent sized shop in northwestern Montana. The build site is completely off grid with no near future intentions of having grid access though we are located next to a state highway. I have little idea on where to start on figuring out power needs. Outside of small household appliances and shop equipment we will be starting fresh. All major appliances were left at our old home. All these usage calculators seem to have widely different power consumption rates, many appliances are used infrequently or very short term. We have been living in a travel trailer for two years so we do know how to conserve everything but we want to live mostly normal again and have most of the convenience of prior on grid life.

    Our cabin will be 2 bedroom, 1 bath and about 1800 sq feet. Looking to build a 36x40 shop. I have a considerable amount of tooling and shop equipment from my prior living arrangement and use the shop to fix up and sell vehicles and medium sized equipment. I have electric welders but will most likely sell the majority of my heavy consumption equipment and buy an engine driven welder which would power things like my plasma cutter. Many of my smaller handheld power tools have been supplemented or replaced by gas or battery powered tools. I am a forestry contractor by trade and am used to doing much with little.

    We will be drilling a well and also building a large bird enclosure with a tackroom and loafing shed for horses. Our lot leaves alot to be desired in the way of constant sunshine. Our property backs up to usfs land on the east side of use and we don't get an appreciable amount of direct sun until after 11am. I have two small reasonable areas for solar arrays, one appears to be best suited facing south and the other to the west. I am also expecting to have a small diesel generator to augment power production and will have to lean on it heavily during the winter months. I am going to have to do much of the building and construction myself due to the lack of available contractors in the area and inflated pricing of practically everything needed to construct a home these days.
    T
    Input and ideas would be greatly appreciated in determining power needs and ideal componants selection and placement
  • bcroe
    Solar Fanatic
    • Jan 2012
    • 5198

    #2
    Originally posted by Daveyclimber
    I am building a modest cabin and a decent sized shop in northwestern Montana. The build site is completely off grid with no near future intentions of having grid access though we are located next to a state highway. I have little idea on where to start on figuring out power needs. Outside of small household appliances and shop equipment we will be starting fresh. All major appliances were left at our old home. All these usage calculators seem to have widely different power consumption rates, many appliances are used infrequently or very short term. We have been living in a travel trailer for two years so we do know how to conserve everything but we want to live mostly normal again and have most of the convenience of prior on grid life.

    Our cabin will be 2 bedroom, 1 bath and about 1800 sq feet. Looking to build a 36x40 shop. I have a considerable amount of tooling and shop equipment from my prior living arrangement and use the shop to fix up and sell vehicles and medium sized equipment. I have electric welders but will most likely sell the majority of my heavy consumption equipment and buy an engine driven welder which would power things like my plasma cutter. Many of my smaller handheld power tools have been supplemented or replaced by gas or battery powered tools. I am a forestry contractor by trade and am used to doing much with little.

    We will be drilling a well and also building a large bird enclosure with a tackroom and loafing shed for horses. Our lot leaves alot to be desired in the way of constant sunshine. Our property backs up to usfs land on the east side of use and we don't get an appreciable amount of direct sun until after 11am. I have two small reasonable areas for solar arrays, one appears to be best suited facing south and the other to the west. I am also expecting to have a small diesel generator to augment power production and will have to lean on it heavily during the winter months. I am going to have to do much of the building and construction myself due to the lack of available contractors in the area and inflated pricing of practically everything needed to construct a home these days.
    T
    Input and ideas would be greatly appreciated in determining power needs and ideal components selection and placement
    Being off grid is never as convenient as on grid. Your largest power surges
    (starting motors) and total consumption will need to be known, to build your
    system. With a lot of clouds and snow, solar may not help much in winter.

    I suggest you start by thinking about how you can run your well. An AC motor
    needs a huge surge to start, could be delivered by a large enough (diesel?)
    generator. There are DC well pumps, which will require a very substantial battery
    to run. good luck, Bruce Roe

    Comment

    • Bala
      Solar Fanatic
      • Dec 2010
      • 716

      #3
      These are just some things for you to think about, with research you will come to understand what your options are based on what you need to do.

      When you have Grid connection you have available say a minimum of about 15Kva of power available to you 24/7 ( As long as the grid is up) So you can essentially use power to do what you want whenever you want.

      It is hard to replicate grid power in an off grid home. I have a small home but do a lot of welding, vehicle repairs etc. I have very good sun hrs and a solar system to run some things all the time and some things when the sun is good. I have a 10kva generator to charge batteries when needed and weld. grind, use lathe, compressor etc etc.

      For off grid you need either sun, water flow for hydro or wind to charge batteries. If you want a normal?? life without one of those being good you are almost left with running a generator with battery back up. So the generator basically runs while you are out of bed and batteries can carry the load over night.

      It can be done but set up and running costs will not be small.

      Comment

      • SunEagle
        Super Moderator
        • Oct 2012
        • 15125

        #4
        Of course you can talk to Mike who is off grid and see what equipment he has (solar, batteries, generators, distilled water, etc.) and how much load he runs.

        Comment

        • Mike90250
          Moderator
          • May 2009
          • 16020

          #5
          I'm totally off grid in Northern California. I have good sun exposure, and a 3kw PV array. That cramped out style and after 2 years, we added another 2kw of PV

          I irrigate fruit & nut trees in the summer, consuming about 1,200 gallons daily. I pump to elevated holding tanks, so I always have pressure and don't have to worry about a pump cutting off in the middle of the night.

          Summers, we consume 13kwh daily, pumping water mostly, winter about 7kwy daily. 2200sf house comfortably heated by a masonry wood heater, solar water heat boost in summer, SS heating loop in the wood stove keeps a 80 gal holding tank at about 95F

          Batteries are flooded, consume a fair amount of distilled water, but cold does not damage them. Li batteries have less maintenance, but must be kept above 33F.

          You have lots of decisions and calculations to do. What size water pump are you planning on? 240VAC is easier on inverters and are common as hens teeth. DC pumps cost more seem to fail a lot, and you wait for replacements.

          Then you have your fridge, furnace. Bruce has done a lot of work with mini-split heat pumps and has a large solar install, which meets most of his needs


          Well Pump Motor Specs.jpg
          Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
          || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
          || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

          solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
          gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

          Comment

          • Daveyclimber
            Junior Member
            • Sep 2019
            • 7

            #6
            Living in the travel trailer for more than 2 years has given me a good idea on limitations and what to expect. I live off a generator and house batteries, both on my building lot and when I'm working a BLM contract. My well will most likely be a grundfos, 240 volt. With that being said, I suppose I'm going to be looking into split phase inverters. Ideally I would store all power generation components in a small building built off the shop and run power to the shop, house and well from there. I'll probably be doing all the installation and wiring myself so it will be a learning curve when it comes to wiring the AC side as I'm much more familiar with DC wiring. Living in the county that I do, pretty much anything goes as far as residential building. Currently applied for well and septic permits and they are all that my county and state require since I'm not building commercially.

            I expect I have sufficient room and decent enough sunshine for two 6 panel arrays, maybe 3 if I can kill a couple trees. And I expect ill need every bit of it for 8-9 months of the year. I'm quite familiar with the principles of living off grid and have been doing so. Now its time to build a home and enjoy some creature comforts again. Realistically I expect to spend 40k easily on this but it may not be possible to buy everything at once and my have to prioritize components that I can grow into. A generator and batteries takes precedence over going nuts with panels and would probably start with a minimal amount until I can handle the financials. Would half cut panels be a good option for my partial shade conditions? Any downside to them? We are conservative with power use and we are not expecting an on grid lifestyle but comfortable.

            Comment

            • Mike90250
              Moderator
              • May 2009
              • 16020

              #7
              Go with full size 300w+ panels, made by the millions, cheaper than 120w panels. The more panels you can put up, the less your fuel costs will be.

              Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
              || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
              || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

              solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
              gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

              Comment

              • Daveyclimber
                Junior Member
                • Sep 2019
                • 7

                #8
                Originally posted by Mike90250
                Go with full size 300w+ panels, made by the millions, cheaper than 120w panels. The more panels you can put up, the less your fuel costs will be.
                Yes,,that is my idea though getting where I want panel wise may be down the road a short bit.

                Comment

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