Advice on off grid water pump timer

[pmeyers]

Bala, oregon_phil, great information, going to spend processing. Can't get to my property till Sat when I can try the jumper on the controller. Have ordered the timer, and really appreciate your time oregen-phil and the diagrams you put together, you're a generous teacher. I have a breaker coming from the panels so no worries about electrical. Want to spend some time on Bala's suggestion about pressure switch. I really appreciate all the help.

[oregon_phil]

pmeyers , if the setup works, you might want to add a simple single post single throw switch (OFF/ON) switch on the "float switch" signal line to make it easy to enable and disable the timer function. The timer will still work, but the pump won't care about the timer if the SPST switch is in the off position. You could even use an old light switch if you have an extra one laying around. I hope this works out for you. See new attachment.

People on this forum have a wealth of knowledge and are happy to share it with others. I was going to get an inverter to install in my RV to run an occasional Nespresso, but after reading all the stickies about batteries and inverters, I decided to get a cooktop Moka pot instead.

[pmeyers]

Adding a switch is a good idea. Thanks again for all of your contributions. I think Bala's is likely a good solution but probably not the easiest for me. I have a simple system, direct solar power to the controller, to the pump. I have a large tank that is located quite high on my property so have good head, good water pressure. I do not have need for a pressure tank and so I am quite unfamiliar with the elements that are required in Bala's solution. My shortcoming. If what you have proposed works, it seems pretty simple. i can just install a 12v battery and connect to a small solar trickle charger, items I already have.

My skills are obviously not electronics, but I have managed to stumble through two solar installations for the water well and and a separate array that provides battery power to a 39' fifth wheel. I am more of a builder and I am in the process of trying to resurrect a property that we have in the Sierras that was pretty much destroyed by a forest fire more than 20 years ago. I had built a 40x60 shop and multiple out building, which along with the trees, primarily pinion are all gone. We want to improve the property so that it can provide a retreat for our grand children in our potentially crazy future. I have attached a photo of an RV cover that I recently built that can be converted in the future to an enclosed living structure. Again, thank you for the help

[pmeyers]

I jumped the connections on the float level and it showed tank full as you described. Got my timer and will configure it and give it a test the next trip I make up the mountain.

[oregon_phil]

Excellent. I think you are on your way to having the solution! Good job. The hardest part will be interpreting the timer instructions.

[pmeyers]

oregon_phil; So the timer seems ok to set, but I have a question about the results of my settings. When the timer is set to ON is it closing the contacts and stopping water from being pumped.? If I want to pump water between 10:00-14:00 3 days a week, is turning the timer to ON for that period actually closing the contacts and preventing water from being pumped during that period? Or is it enabling water to only be pumped during that period? Alternatively should the timer be on from 14:00-10:00, preventing water from being pumped for that period and allowing it only to be pumped for the desired time. 10:00-14:00 when the timer is set to off?
When I check the leads to the pump controller there is zero current whether or not the timer is on or off. The graphic is poorly done that is under the window that shows a light when timer is on, and could be read as either closed or open, part of my confusion...

[oregon_phil]

So the timer seems ok to set, but I have a question about the results of my settings. When the timer is set to ON is it closing the contacts and stopping water from being pumped.?

Yes

If I want to pump water between 10:00-14:00 3 days a week, is turning the timer to ON for that period actually closing the contacts and preventing water from being pumped during that period?

Yes

When I check the leads to the pump controller there is zero current whether or not the timer is on or off.

With dry contacts, you will not read any current.

Since the timer is normally open when OFF (pump works) and is closed when ON (pump doesn't work), you have to think of the timer using inverse logic. When the timer is ON, the pump is OFF. When the timer is OFF, then pump is ON.

It looks like there are four 3 day per week functions: MWF, TuThSa, MTW, ThFrSa, but I would use the DAILY program to force the timer ON (pump OFF) on the days you want the pump off to make sure.

For example:

Sunday: 12 am ON
Monday: 10am/OFF 4pm/ON:
Tuesday: 12 am ON
Wednesday: 10am/OFF 4pm/ON:
Thursday: 12 am ON
Friday: 10am/OFF 4pm/ON:
Saturday: 12 am ON


This was part of a review for this timer "This unit has an automatic locking feature that cannot be disabled as far as I can tell, in order to make any programming changes you must first press the C/R button four times"

Try this out and see what happens.

[pmeyers]

I think that I get your schedule, thank you. Each day must have instructions. Another question occurs to me though....It assumes that the pump controller will be on the entire time. Since my panels directly feed the controller and there are no storage batteries, when the sun goes down there is no power to maintain the controller. When the controller powers down at dark and then powers up again with the sun, I don't know if the switch would stay in the on position.
When I next go up, I'll try the manual function and test it for a 1/2 hour period.

[oregon_phil]

As long as there is battery power to the timer, and the timer is programmed to be ON, the output should remain closed (Pump Off). The controller should recognize the ON/OFF state of the timer when it wakes up in the morning.

Think of it this way, the timer is just a jumper wire that is either There (Relay ON/Pump OFF) or NOT There (Relay OFF/Pump ON).

[oregon_phil]

pmeyers , I have reviewed your pump situation using reverse logic and that just doesn't seem like the safest method to me. The Flexcharge timer came with a set of Normally Open and Normally closed relay contacts. That is an easier solution, but much more expensive.

If you buy one more component, a 12VDC relay (DPST 1NO 1NC 8Amp Power Relay Module, AC/DC 12V Control Voltage) you can simulate the Flexcharge timer exactly. Please see the latest attachment for details. Also, I think it is best to eliminate the circuit enable switch (that I previously suggested) because if you FORGET to switch the circuit enable switch to ON/CLOSED, the pump could run continuously when the sun shines, but you think the timer is only making the pump work 3 days a week for 4 hours a day.

Also, if you install the new relay, the circuit fail condition is PUMP OFF. If the new relay is NOT installed the circuit fail condition is PUMP ON.

Please see the latest attachment for details. I have also made a logic table for you to review so that you may better understand the circuit.

Have fun!

[pmeyers]

Thank you again oregon-phil. Have been on the road all day so haven't spent a lot of time on this, but I think that I get the idea. I learn better when thing are in my hands so I'm going to order the DPST 1NO 1NC 8Amp Power Relay Module, AC/DC 12V Control Voltage from Amazon. I'll mount it on a board and should be able to
test it by the weekend. So the purpose of the power relay is to reverse the timer and be able to more directly control when the pump is on by inverting the action of the timer?
Appreciate all of your work and your efforts to explain all of this so clearly while making it work. You must have a lot of experience in this field. Can't thank you enough...After thought, what fuse size should I use between the battery and the timer?

[oregon_phil]

Thank you again oregon-phil. Have been on the road all day so haven't spent a lot of time on this, but I think that I get the idea. I learn better when thing are in my hands so I'm going to order the DPST 1NO 1NC 8Amp Power Relay Module, AC/DC 12V Control Voltage from Amazon. I'll mount it on a board and should be able to
test it by the weekend. So the purpose of the power relay is to reverse the timer and be able to more directly control when the pump is on by inverting the action of the timer?
Appreciate all of your work and your efforts to explain all of this so clearly while making it work. You must have a lot of experience in this field. Can't thank you enough...After thought, what fuse size should I use between the battery and the timer?

Yes, the purpose of relay is to invert the action of the timer. The cheap timer only has one set of contacts that are Normally Open (NO). The Flexcharge timer comes with Normally Open contacts AND Normally Closed (NC) contacts. We are trying to replicate the NC function without paying $75.

I am a retired mechanical design and process engineer that worked closely with controls engineers. Whenever you are developing a process (like you are doing), you have to make sure it is intuitive for the operator (you or others) and properly handles fault conditions (like a run down battery). I did this for a living working for the man, but your project is more fun and worthwhile. Using reverse timing on the timer failed the intuitive test.

As far as fuse size, gee the timer hardly uses any power. Most people probably wouldn't put a fuse on the positive power line, but how about a 3 amp fast blow fuse? I don't know. Maybe somebody else can chime in.

Good luck!

[chrisski]

Don't know about Northern Arizona reviewing this. The guy pretty much blew me off when I asked about a timer. Forgot to mention that I had bought my pump system from them

The reviews I saw of that place were like that. “Good customer service until I bought something, but after that it stopped..”

I called for a battery quote and for some reason the quote I got was for shipping four batteries. I went to buy the batteries, but they were significantly. More than my quote, because it included the price of the batteries. I did not go back there.

==============

So, don’t know where you are, but I am in Arizona. I see cattle watering points scattered throughout the desert run off many different ways. I’m not exactly sure what you’re asking for, but perhaps a company that deals in this ranch equipment can help. THe closest I can recommend is stop by a tractor supply company.

[pmeyers]

oregon-phil has been a huge help with this. As far as Northern Arizona, they told me that they didn't carry any timers, to look elsewhere for help. The irony is that they had the exact timer on the shelf that oregon-phil has described to solve the problem, the Flexcharge. Haven't done enough business since buying my pump system to call it a pattern, it was just a guy on the phone who seemed to want to do anything other than to talk with me.

[pmeyers]

oregon_phil, sorry to be slow in getting back to you. Lot of things came up preventing me from working on this. Finally got all of my parts together on a bench yesterday and mounted everything on a board, wired it together, put power to it, programmed it and it seemed to work just as you described. Should be able to get up the mountain tomorrow to test it on the pump controller. I'll report back.