All in one solution

[Drael6464]

I'm basically after an emergency backup power solution. Really only 1kwhours to 2kwhours. I'd like however to have maximal input to said system, in order to have some input generation during winter. I don't want to spend ten thousand plus, AND I don't own my own home. So I am not looking for anything installed into a house.

So I've been looking at all in one packs - charge controller, lithium battery and inverter all in one portable box. The sort used for base camps, remote offices, camping and the like. There is a huge selection of these in America, but very few in new Zealand that I've found (If anyone knows of any others, let me know).

So far I've found these two:

https://www.hiteksolar.co.nz/products/hitek-portable-solar-generator-1-5kw-lithium-battery-storage

https://www.wildfiresports.com.au/go...olar-generator (there are some kiwi retailers as well I think)

Even better the new goal zero 3000.

The main trouble with such units is my requirement to be able to plug in as much solar (and perhaps wind, as I think with sandbagging or a water base, these can be made temporary as well), as I can, so that I can still generate a little on cloudy/still days. The charge controllers peak out at like certain volts and amps. Without knowing much about electronics, I suspect putting too much in, in either volts or amps, for the spec, could fry the device.

So I am wondering is there anything I can plug both solar and wind generators into that would limit the incoming charge to a set voltage, and/or amperage? Sure I can set it up in parallel, or series, so that its the volts OR the amps that adds up, but to actually cap it out? Can a charge controller be used for this? (I'm thinking not, as it seems specific to batteries).

So that I can plug in more panels, and perhaps also DC wind turbines than I normally would be limited to, in order to get some okay charge input on less sunny days (Where I live, its typically either sunny or windy)

Really a noob to all this, and it would be nice to get some guidance. Keep in mind, this is not a living solution, it's not supposed to cover all my needs, just run a 30W RV fridge, some lights and charge a few devices kinda thing. A "minimum" emergency living situation.

And yeah, I do want lithium because a) DOD b) cycles c) more portable. I know I could save money on lead-acid, but 1000-1500 cycles before a massive plummet in charge capacity, versus 3000-6000 cycles and a slow drop off in capacity, is a no brainer even with the price difference for me.

Basically I want a system with minimal set-up (except perhaps for some kind of custom box to limit amps and volts), decentish input in winter, just enough power to run a low wattage fridge and a few other things, long life, and something I can take with me if I move....

Weird? maybe. But I'd like your much more expert thoughts all the same!

[Mike90250]

don't over sell yourself on lithium for your initial pack. Li is still in the early stages and better gear is coming out monthly. And more BS is being detected in the sales pitches.

Before we design for your 30w RV fridge, do you have a link to the mfg's data page for it ? I think something is wrong with your consumption figures, 30 w would be amazing !!

I'll scrounge up the plans I made for my portable rig, single sheet of carefully cut plywood & lots of metal corner braces. plans:

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1559540947236.2074858.1196643274&type=1&l=011ae332d0

&

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1485191288541.2069021.1196643274&type=1&l=afceab33de

[Drael6464]

A few things I really like about lithium are the number of charge cycles - admittedly there are some newer hybrid lithium batteries though with ever better charge cycles, like the ones used in the tesla powerwall. So possibly things may get even better there. But three times the number of charge cycles, even with 20 % depth of discharge is attractive. And because I am familiar with lithium batteries in my line of work, I know that's no lie - those things last, and they do tolerate reasonably high DOD.

If there are similar alternatives I'm all ears. I would kinda love to make my own portable rig, but I have NO knowledge/skill in electrical work. And looking at the battery safety, battery management systems, putting in fuses etc, it seems like a steep learning curve with a lot of work.

Here's an example of such a fridge -

http://www.shtfpreparedness.com/solar-powered-fridge-freezer-30w-off-grid-refrigeration/

I've seen it in a few youtube videos too such as https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrHN6iTMtvM. You can also get smaller car/rv 12 volt fridge freezers with compressors that reportedly run around 24 watts. So I think something in the region is possible. I don't actually have the fridge yet though.

The main list would be something like - some kind of low wattage fridge/freezer - some 2.4 amp 5v USB plugs for charging devices (usb torch, usb lantern, phone), a low wattage monitor and computer (something all in one, specifically green with no moving parts, and energy star monitor) and MAYBE, if the system has the inverter and the juice, occasional use of a RV style electric frypan or RV 500W microwave. (If not perhaps I can use something outdoor and wood driven). Of course its hard to know exactly what that totals to a day, as I don't have most of the appliances/goods. I've seen a 12V electric frypan rated under 500W, and a microwave around that. The USB charging is reasonably predictable, and I believe some kind of fridge/freezer can be had at around that, even if its a bit higher. The PC, and monitor - IDK how low I can get that. Certainly all in ones are often 12V driven, but that's an area I haven't researched as much.

I'll have a look at your build, as I find this stuff a lot of fun, even if some of it is a little out of my legue!

[NEOH]

Drael6464 ,

The words "Portable" and "Wind Turbine" are not usually found in the same sentence.
That requirement may need to be optional.

And I agree with you, Lead Acid Batteries are not portable

As a consumer product, Lithium Battery Packs are very mature.
Don't over charge ...
Don't over discharge ...
Don't over heat ...
And they will last you a very long time.
The problem is .. cell phones and laptops push the charge to extremes for maximum capacity
because max battery hours is selling feature, at the expense of long battery life.

Have you looked at Goal Zero?

http://www.goalzero.com/solar-generators/

[Drael6464]

Drael6464 ,

The words "Portable" and "Wind Turbine" are not usually found in the same sentence.
That requirement may need to be optional.

And I agree with you, Lead Acid Batteries are not potable

As a consumer product, Lithium Battery Packs are very mature.
Don't over charge ...
Don't over discharge ...
Don't over heat ...
And they will last you a very long time.
The problem is .. cell phones and laptops push the charge to extremes for maximum capacity
because max battery hours is selling feature, at the expense of long battery life.

Have you looked at Goal Zero?

http://www.goalzero.com/solar-generators/

I've seen a few wind turbines that could be described as portable. Usually the less efficient, but less noisy verticle type, with either stabilizing ropes, or a water filled base for stability. They ain't common, so if I wanted something like that I'd probably have to rig it myself somehow.

Main issue for me, is I don't really understand how the max volts and amps for a charge controller work. Say I had two solar panels and a turbine with 24V and up to 4.4 amps DC, and the controller takes a max of say 48V, and 30 amps - what happens if it goes over one of those? Bad things? I don't quite understand how to design a combined turbine and panel system within the limits of whatever charge controller I'd be dealing with.

I see lead carbon super capacitor batteries also seem to have longer life. For a stationary system, that actually looks like a good option. Not quite as good as lithium, especially NMC, and still not lightweight.

Yeah, I have looked at goal zero. I kinda love them, the discharge inverter of 1500W peak 3000W is plenty for a thing this size. The charge controller is a little weak, in terms of what the max you can put into it is, but the 3000, the new one looks okay there as well.

Thing I am not in love with is the price. IF I was a DIY guy I could get the same thing for half the price nearly. There's a local outfit that does a similar, less bells and whistles all in one with 1.5kwh's which unfortunately has a 500W inverter built in (although that'll still cover a fridge, it just gives one less options), that's probably 3/4 of the price of the goal zero models.

Another even cheaper option is one of those 4wd inverter battery box dual battery set ups. But they don't include a charge controller (although can take lithium batteries), and inverter peaks at a mere 300W. Bit sad, but could have a set up this way at half the price (they do have a few internal fuses).

And unfortunately where I live, I am no swamped in solar generator options like folks are in the US. They have dozens of those things, and if I was there, I am sure I could find one with just the right spec and price.

I just looked at DIY for portable set-ups - all the wiring, jerry-riggin, fuses etc - I'd be well in over my head. So I guess it's got to be something that makes my life easier without breaking the bank.

Maybe it'll have to be something like the goal zero 1400, while I enviously glance the 3000's way :P

[Drael6464]

If running over amps or volts on the charge controller is an issue, is there anything that can automatically step down anything DC over a certain level of amps and volts? So that say the maximum volts is IDK, 27 and maximum amps 30 or whatever the controller can handle?

Just because I want a system that can draw down _something_ on a cloudy and low wind day, and the logical way to do that is to have a higher watt turbine, and more panels/more watt panels. But then on a high wind, or high sun day, that same rig might fry the unit.....

Although maybe I have this all entirely mixed up!

[Mike90250]

Lithium solar is, in my estimation, NOT consumer ready. There are some drop in automotive replacement batteries, and that's it. The hobbyist and experimenter kits assume you know what you are doing, and if you do it wrong, you have a fire - hopefully not in a critical place.
Cellphones, laptops and hoverboards still burn up at unacceptable rates.
Li-IonFires.png

[Drael6464]

Well, with regular lithium ion batteries, thermal runaway is something that happens when you overtax it - incorrect voltage/amperage coming in, overheated environment, usually at the same time as a lot of draw coming out. Which is I suppose why people say battery management systems are essential for lithium solar batteries. I don't think you can just slap in a cell.

That said, tesla uses LiNiCoAluO2, and goal zero uses NMC, but I am not sure what difference that makes to battery safety - they both still have BMS.

[Drael6464]

For goal zero, lead acid plate design with deep discharge would certainly be cheaper although the life cycles are less. Nobody makes such a thing with lead carbon super capacitor batteries. Your certainly right that battery tech is during a period of rapid advance. In a few years only there will likely be a range of new options. including improved lead acid options.

The goal zero customer support person mentioned using a "limiter" for wind turbines, as their charge controller doesn't limit wind charge. Is he talking about adding another hybrid charge controller, in front of the already existing charge controller, or is a "limiter" something else?

[Drael6464]

Locally, these guys make custom designs based on AGM batteries for RVs, and they are a bit cheaper than goal zero, bang for buck:

http://www.vantagerv.nz/solar-generator-250-watt-system-p/250wgen.htm

I could probably make specific requests, and they'd put it together for me.

[Mike90250]

I'd rather you bought something from joes garage down the street, make sure he puts his name on it in fireproof ink (engraved on metal), than to see you home brew something and overlook something critical. If joes box blows, you can blame it on him.
With Li-Ion batteries, where the batteries themselves burn, in addition to the wires and insulation, it can make for such a much larger mess.

And when someone wants "lead carbon super capacitor batteries" I know they are not ready for Li-ion of any flavor. But go ahead, buy some and put up some fireproof cement board before you hook up the batteries. I am not against new tech, but I am against unknowing applications of new tech, without respect for the immense amount of power stored in a small portable box.

There are still people killing themselves in hang gliders, using just wind energy and elevation !

[littleharbor]

[QUOTE=Mike90250;n363623

There are still people killing themselves in hang gliders, using just wind energy and elevation ![/QUOTE]

And gravity, of course.

[Drael6464]

I was hoping for some specific advice. For example regarding the "limiter" question I posed. Or what exactly happens when the watts or amps go over the max with a charge controller, and how to prevent that with larger arrays.

My preference is for an all in one solution and I have some options for that available.

Although I appreciate the anti-lithium advice, and I'll take that into account, my options for a pre-built, or custom built package are really limited to lithium NMC and lead acid AGM. If I am going to fork out thousands for an all on one inverter, controller, battery package, for my needs, I'd like it to last more than a few years. As I understand it, while AGM lead acid is safer, it still only has in the region of 1000-1500 cycles. That doesn't seem particular cost effective or reliable, having to replace your battery every 4-6 years.

For me, it'd be preferable to have something last more or the region of a decade+. 3000-5000 cycles.

Anyway, if anyone is feeling generous, perhaps they could apply their superior knowledge to filling in my blanks.

There aren't a great deal of options at my disposable, its really AGM or lithium NMC with BMS, unless I get someone to design something custom for me. And my biggest question is really regarding the charge controller limits, and how to use a system designed for a few solar panels, for more solar, and some wind without actually going the amp and voltage limitations of the device.

I guess, perhaps I should talk directly with the manufacturers? Would that be a better place to find what I need?

[J.P.M.]

[QUOTE=Drael6464;n363628]I was hoping for some specific advice.

My preference is for an all in one solution and I have some options for that available.

There aren't a great deal of options at my disposable, its really AGM or lithium NMC with BMS, unless I get someone to design something custom for me. And my biggest question is really regarding the charge controller limits, and how to use a system designed for a few solar panels, for more solar, and some wind without actually going the amp and voltage limitations of the device./QUOTE]

Given your acknowledged ignorance and that all this is for emergency power rather than common, every day use, and since you're asking for specific advice:

A portable generator might be a better all round option. Better, cheaper, faster. Just not very sexy. Given the information supplied, seems like a no brainer to me.

[SunEagle]

Drael6464 ,

The words "Portable" and "Wind Turbine" are not usually found in the same sentence.
That requirement may need to be optional.

And I agree with you, Lead Acid Batteries are not potable

As a consumer product, Lithium Battery Packs are very mature.
Don't over charge ...
Don't over discharge ...
Don't over heat ...
And they will last you a very long time.
The problem is .. cell phones and laptops push the charge to extremes for maximum capacity
because max battery hours is selling feature, at the expense of long battery life.

Have you looked at Goal Zero?

http://www.goalzero.com/solar-generators/

Before anyone looks at purchasing one of those Goal Zero systems they need to look into building their own system.

I put together a small portable system with an 80 watt panel, 15 amp PWM CC, 65AH 12v Optima Blue Top battery, Battery case, hand cart, 250watt inverter for about $550 and half of that was for a very expensive folding solar panel which can probably now be purchased for about $150 instead of the $250 I spent.

Here are a few pictures of my system which I have used a number of times while flying my RC planes, craft fair and during my last power outage from Irma.