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  • Is Radian an actual charge controller or not?

    I'm interested in purchasing an Outback Radian 8048... they call it an "inverter/charger" and yet all the pictures I see, it has the Flexmax charge controllers next to it.

    I understand that the Radian can not harvest solar energy directly from the panels.. I'm assuming this is the purpose of the Flexmax controllers.. But what about harvesting energy from a generator to charge batteries? Will the Radian turn 240 vac from something like a 5000 watt Coleman portable generator into DC current for charging batteries? Does the Radian then act as a charge controller for the batteries?

    Next question:
    Correct me if I'm mistaken, but it is my understanding that the Radian inverter is capable of "tricking" my Grid Tied SMA SunnyBoy 6.0-US inverter into making power. I'm assuming that it uses a little bit of energy from the battery bank to simulate the Grid AC signal...Do I have this correct? Will the Radian then use the AC power from the SunnyBoy inverter to charge batteries?

    The Radian manual says it can not harvest energy directly from the solar panels.. does having a grid tied inverter between the panels and the Radian get around this problem?


  • #2
    The radian is a inverter/charger No solar. AC-DC-AC only.
    it will invert from DC to AC. It will charge batteries from a stable 240VAC source. And it can invert AC from DC.

    I believe it could work, AC coupled to charge batteries, but mixing vendors to do "Off-Label" stuff, I can't help ya, I'm strictly off grid and never researched it much for my case.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Murby View Post
      I'm interested in purchasing an Outback Radian 8048... they call it an "inverter/charger" and yet all the pictures I see, it has the Flexmax charge controllers next to it.
      The flexmax charge controller is for charging the batteries from Solar.
      The inverter can charge from AC




      Originally posted by Murby View Post
      I understand that the Radian can not harvest solar energy directly from the panels.. I'm assuming this is the purpose of the Flexmax controllers.. But what about harvesting energy from a generator to charge batteries? Will the Radian turn 240 vac from something like a 5000 watt Coleman portable generator into DC current for charging batteries? Does the Radian then act as a charge controller for the batteries?
      No it does not act like a charge controller. It acts like a battery charger. Charge controllers are for solar.
      It will however in acting (being) a charger, charge the battery from your generator.



      Originally posted by Murby View Post
      Next question:
      Correct me if I'm mistaken, but it is my understanding that the Radian inverter is capable of "tricking" my Grid Tied SMA SunnyBoy 6.0-US inverter into making power. I'm assuming that it uses a little bit of energy from the battery bank to simulate the Grid AC signal...Do I have this correct? Will the Radian then use the AC power from the SunnyBoy inverter to charge batteries?

      The Radian manual says it can not harvest energy directly from the solar panels.. does having a grid tied inverter between the panels and the Radian get around this problem?
      No it is not "Tricking" it is AC coupling.
      It will form a grid, get the SMA inverter online and charge the batteries with the power.

      http://www.outbackpower.com/download...te_acc_new.pdf
      OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks for the answers! Exactly what I wanted to know....

        Comment


        • #5
          Just out of curiosity, why aren't you looking at the Sunny Island + Smartformer? Price? One problem you'll have with any AC coupled system is that it is will only handle bulk charging well... if you get into a situation where the grid-tie inverter is producing more power than your loads and battery can handle, it will shut down... not graceful. The Sunny Island offers some ability to curtail the PV output.

          I see from your other threads that a solution you are considering is to just rewire the panels from the grid-tie strings to strings (and fuses) appropriate for the Flexmax CC. Is that the plan you are running with at this point?
          CS6P-260P/SE3000 - http://tiny.cc/ed5ozx

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by sensij View Post
            Just out of curiosity, why aren't you looking at the Sunny Island + Smartformer? Price? One problem you'll have with any AC coupled system is that it is will only handle bulk charging well... if you get into a situation where the grid-tie inverter is producing more power than your loads and battery can handle, it will shut down... not graceful. The Sunny Island offers some ability to curtail the PV output.
            Yes.. Price is a big one... The Sunny Island would have been my first and only choice if it was priced competitively.. I need 8000 watts to run a mig welder on occasion, actually I need more like 10kw but I can get by with 8kw. The Sunny Island is just priced way too high or it would have been my first choice.

            As far as the AC coupling shutting down due to not enough power being drawn, I understand that.. I might have to figure out some kind of dump load like maybe heating water or something... Does the Schneider Electric Conext system handle this any better than the Radian? I read a really bad review of the Schneider system online here:
            http://forum.solar-electric.com/disc...es-are-made-of
            I have to wonder if this is someone who didn't do their homework

            I see from your other threads that a solution you are considering is to just rewire the panels from the grid-tie strings to strings (and fuses) appropriate for the Flexmax CC. Is that the plan you are running with at this point?
            Thank you very much for reading my other threads.. Since I'm using a ground mount system, and I had the forethought to run extra heavy gauge wire AND extra conduits when I buried everything, the answer is that I want to keep it open as an option. Seems to me that the Flexmax controller would make harvesting solar energy a lot more efficient and a lot less problematic than the AC Coupling... knowing that, I will most likely order a Flexmax controller (or two) along with the Radian Inverter... I have a bunch of PV wire on a spool but should probably get some MC4 connectors.. I also have most of what I need to build my own combiner box...

            Keep in mind, the idea here is not to tear apart my grid tied system and redo everything.. The idea is to have that option should the grid ever go down for an extended period of time measured in months or years.

            Comment


            • #7
              No need for the Schneider WX. Although Mike here has a WX and seems to like it.
              two SW units paralleled and DC coupled. A/C coupling has you in a $$$ box, that also includes some headaches. And with generator support you can easily come up with your 10-12kw running a 3-5kw genny.
              Another thing to think about. When SHTF do you want to be relying on fairly complex technology with (hopefully) of tens of thousands hours on it. Or fairly simple technology that basically has no time on it waiting to save the day. Besides the panels of course.
              Last edited by SWFLA; 08-21-2017, 04:23 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by SWFLA View Post
                No need for the Schneider WX. Although Mike here has a WX and seems to like it.
                two SW units paralleled and DC coupled. A/C coupling has you in a $$$ box, that also includes some headaches. And with generator support you can easily come up with your 10-12kw running a 3-5kw genny.
                Another thing to think about. When SHTF do you want to be relying on fairly complex technology with (hopefully) of tens of thousands hours on it. Or fairly simple technology that basically has no time on it waiting to save the day. Besides the panels of course.
                What fairly simple technology are you referring to?

                If I purchase the off grid equipment, I will hook it up, test it, and then pack it away in a Faraday cage for safe keeping. I'm still working on a solution for batteries.. worst case scenario is I have to buy some T105-RE batteries, hook them up to float, and exercise them on a schedule. Not sure how long they would last under such conditions but I would tend to think at least 5 years if they're only discharged 50% a dozen times a year...

                My fairly simple technology is a Wood Gassifier to run a generator and an air compressor to compress the gas into propane tanks for cooking.. I converted my Coleman 5000 to run on Natural gas and I can't believe how much smoother it runs.. starts easier, starts in -10 degree weather, and doesn't choke or bog down when a heavy load is put on it.. The darn thing runs better on natural gas then the gasoline it was designed for. Wood gas won't be much different.. although there will be some power loss..


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                • #9
                  I have XW gear (not WX)

                  I have heard of some issues running welders off of inverters, there can be some spikes from the welder, so you may want to put some of the Midnight Surge Protection devices on the welder circuit to soak up the spikes.
                  Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                  || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                  || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                  solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                  gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
                    I have XW gear (not WX)

                    I have heard of some issues running welders off of inverters, there can be some spikes from the welder, so you may want to put some of the Midnight Surge Protection devices on the welder circuit to soak up the spikes.
                    If you did it all over again, would you go with the Radian or the Conext system?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I have the XW6040 (pre-Conext) and it's just been a beast and works well.
                      Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                      || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                      || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                      solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                      gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        My fairly simple technology is a Wood Gassifier to run a generator and an air compressor to compress the gas into propane tanks for cooking.. I converted my Coleman 5000 to run on Natural gas and I can't believe how much smoother it runs.. starts easier, starts in -10 degree weather, and doesn't choke or bog down when a heavy load is put on it.. The darn thing runs better on natural gas then the gasoline it was designed for. Wood gas won't be much different.. although there will be some power loss

                        This is definite thread drift but be aware that contrary to media presentations wood gas is a PITA to use as a viable fuel. It can be done with enough technology but as a prepper solution its quite complex. You are far better buying a steam engine and a boiler or growing fermentable crops that don't need sugar addition to create ethanol. (Apples are a good example). Either that or research Organic Rankine Cycle generators connected to wood boilers which are external combustion generators that actually can run continuously compared to the Sterling Engine technology which has been the "almost commercial" technology for over a 100 years that never goes commercial. About the most successful commercial supplier for wood gas generation is Nextera which has spent a long time and lot of others people money to build viable generator systems. I knew one of their former salesmen and even he admitted the only way it made sense is if someone was willing to pay big premium to be green.

                        The primary gas being generated is Carbon Monoxide and its notorious with its ability to kill or injure folks as it is odorless and colorless. For small scale systems, the biggest issues are wood chip size. Its takes a lot of horsepower to reduce a log into appropriately sized wood chips. If you try to uses chunk wood, the conversion efficiency is lower so you need a larger gasifier. The other issue is the moisture content of the wood. If the wood is green the net btu content can be negative meaning the engine isn't going to run as the amount of the moisture destroys the BTU content. Absolutely dry CO is about 70% the btu content of Propane. Any water vapor along for the ride rapidly drops it. There are various methods of taking out some moisture after gasification but they are usually frustrated by a large variety of condensable liquids that go along for the ride. There are all sorts of nasty chemicals but the generic term is "tar" and at some point it gums up the works.

                        You need to get the fuel moisture content down quite low (bone dry preferably) which means chipping it small and drying it. Most commercial chips sold are green. Drying generally means spreading the chips out on blacktop on a hot dry day for a few months and hoping a thundershower doesn't come over. There are air drying systems that use waste heat from the exhaust but they have an annoying tendency to burst into flames. Storing any appreciable amount of wood requires quite a bit of storage volume which is preferably sealed from the outside. This usually is a bottom extraction silo. Chips in general have an annoying tendency when piled to heat up due to bacterial and fungal activity and burst into flames so the best storage is to put it in the top and take it out the bottom to reduce fires. This can be easier said than done as small wood chip systems can be tricky.

                        It all comes down to if you have the spare cash (meaning you won the lottery) to waste to play with wood gas as a hobby its fun and at the level that must folks can understand. Just realize that ultimately you are just playing "dress up" prepping. Please make sure you have the house paid for, a good retirement fund started and stash some cash away to educate your kids before you start p*ssing away cash on wood gas generators. Once you got the real world future in place feel free to spend money on wood gas but realize its ultimately going to be wasted.

                        No need to reinvent the wheel on wood gas, there are lot of resources out there. Unfortunately legit ones that aren't trying to sell you something have all come to the conclusion that making a viable fuel out of wood is not out there yet. Someday someone will figure out a biological process to break down both the lignin and the cellulose fractions of the wood into digestible sugars in one reaction that can be turned into alcohol but to date millions have been spent and at best the processes are 10 years out (and have been for 20 years). So far the folks with the best shot are Ensyn. They can make a liquid fuel that can be blended with crude to make gasoline or diesel but not many folks are going to have the capability to build a rapid pyrolysis system in their backyard. If you really want to go deep, research biobutanol production, just realize that the fuel smells like vomit.
                        Last edited by peakbagger; 08-22-2017, 09:37 AM.

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                        • #13
                          Back in the 80's there were a number of companies providing wood gas burning boilers. If you had a large supply of surplus wood or wood products those boilers were actually pretty cheap to run to generate heat to create steam.

                          Even those small wood burning stoves are pretty dependable and IMO efficient to heat a home if again you have a large supply of cheap wood available. Purchasing split wood from someone would make the financial justification a little harder to make. But cutting and splitting wood from your property is not a bad idea to keep the costs down during the winter.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by sensij View Post
                            Just out of curiosity, why aren't you looking at the Sunny Island + Smartformer? Price? One problem you'll have with any AC coupled system is that it is will only handle bulk charging well... if you get into a situation where the grid-tie inverter is producing more power than your loads and battery can handle, it will shut down... not graceful. The Sunny Island offers some ability to curtail the PV output.

                            I see from your other threads that a solution you are considering is to just rewire the panels from the grid-tie strings to strings (and fuses) appropriate for the Flexmax CC. Is that the plan you are running with at this point?
                            Just found out that my SunnyBoy 6.0-US also offers some internal ability to curtail the output... albeit it would have to be manually done, it has a feature called "active power limitation" where I can dial it down to 5kw or 4kw or whatever I want..
                            Not sure how useful that would be having to constantly play with it since there's no automation and has to be done through its user interface menu...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Another nice option is the Morninstar 600V Tristar charge controller and whatever battery inverter you want. You can keep your solar panels wired as is to the grid tied inverter, but go through a switch that you can manually switch between the charge controller and the inverter when needed. The down side is it doesn't automatically switch over when the grid goes down, but the nice thing is you can do nice 3 stage charging of your battery bank with 1 string of your array (up to about 3kW).
                              Solar Queen
                              altE Store

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