Schneider SW4048 generator input question

[ButchDeal]

FYI for anyone looking at the type of step-up transformer mentioned in post number six keep in mind they will run a US 240v appliance (like a well pump) but they have the European 220v which is 220v to neutral. So you cannot get two legs of 120v to hook to a breaker panel out of one of these auto-transformers. At least this is what I have been told by a few people that sell them.

There are different configurations. I am most familiar with the Outback auto transformer.
I personally use one to power my well pump from a 120V inverter. Though I have also installed them on off grid systems to both balance the two 120V inverters as well as allow optimization (outback will shut down one inverter and provide the other leg through the transformer for under 25a draw)
In this second configuration it provides the second leg on the MSP with one inverter providing the other leg.

Doing the same thing (page 6) on manual should give you the legs from a 240V source to two 120V legs:

http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/autotransformer/PSX-240_Installation_Manual.pdf

[hammick]

Thanks. The PSX-240 will do exactly what I need. Or I could put the $600 plus towards a more powerful inverter generator with 240v.

[Sunking]

FYI for anyone looking at the type of step-up transformer mentioned in post number six keep in mind they will run a US 240v appliance (like a well pump) but they have the European 220v which is 220v to neutral. So you cannot get two legs of 120v to hook to a breaker panel out of one of these auto-transformers. At least this is what I have been told by a few people that sell them.

Incorrect. The 240 has no Neutral. The center tap on the 240 VAC is grounded, but no Neutral is supplied to the user. If you were to measure the voltage from L1 -G, or L2-G you will measure 120 VAC. L1-L2 is 240 VAC. It is standard 3-wire 240 VAC as used in the USA.

If you want 4-wire 240/120 VAC, that cost extra . In your case is not needed.

[sensij]

Thanks. The PSX-240 will do exactly what I need. Or I could put the $600 plus towards a more powerful inverter generator with 240v.

Are you sure about that? If I understand correctly, you would like to take two independent, unsynchronized 120 V generators to supply power to a 240 V load. That is not what the PSX-240 will do, nor is it what I think ButchDeal described.

[inetdog]

Some other threads have mentioned generators which can be synchronized. It would be very difficult to do that on a consumer scale except with inverter-type generators. And I am not sure whether any small inverter types offer synchronization.

[hammick]

Are you sure about that? If I understand correctly, you would like to take two independent, unsynchronized 120 V generators to supply power to a 240 V load. That is not what the PSX-240 will do, nor is it what I think ButchDeal described.

Sorry for the confusion. I have abandoned that idea. Sunking was correct and Schneider confirmed I will smoke my inverter doing that.

I'm looking to step up 120v at 25a (which is what my two Yamaha clones put out in parallel) and wire into my main panel so I can use select loads if my inverter fails. Same thing I could do with a 240v generator. Basically a backup so I can get water from my well and power some lights if my inverter fails. It's looking to be cost foolish so I will probably just keep my 240v contractor generator and just exercise it from time to time. Plus the step-up option would limit me to 12.5 amps.

[hammick]

Incorrect. The 240 has no Neutral. The center tap on the 240 VAC is grounded, but no Neutral is supplied to the user. If you were to measure the voltage from L1 -G, or L2-G you will measure 120 VAC. L1-L2 is 240 VAC. It is standard 3-wire 240 VAC as used in the USA.

If you want 4-wire 240/120 VAC, that cost extra . In your case is not needed.

Understand I have no experience with these autotransformers. Just repeating what several companies that sell them have told me. That the 220v output is EU and has one hot, one neutral and a ground wire. And that hot to neutral will read 220v.

See also this:

https://www.bluesea.com/support/arti...pean_AC_Panels

One guy said that they will power US 220v equipment by connecting L1 to hot, L2 to neutral and ground to ground. Most of the other sellers say they are for EU appliances only.

I want something with L1, L2, N & G so I can wire it to my main panel if my inverter fails.

If someone has one of these cheap autotransformers please put a meter on it and tell us what is up.

[inetdog]

I want something with L1, L2, N & G so I can wire it to my main panel if my inverter fails.
.

Although it is possible to connect a single 0-120V (i.e. L1 only) source to a standard 120-0-120 panel under certain circumstances (no shared neutrals, no 240V loads) that should only be done by an electrician who can verify the safety.
For a "no-brainer" connection to an existing panel you do need a source of 120-0-120 and you need an approved transfer switch or breaker interlock kit. The Outback transformer can be wired up to convert 0-120 to 120-0-120, but again an electrician should do that wiring and the transfer switching to your main panel.

Yet another option, if your Yamaha generators really can be synchronized, is to sync them and then run the output of one through a 1-1 isolation or autotransformer to reverse the phase of that output. Again, it should be wired up by an electrician.

[hammick]

Although it is possible to connect a single 0-120V (i.e. L1 only) source to a standard 120-0-120 panel under certain circumstances (no shared neutrals, no 240V loads) that should only be done by an electrician who can verify the safety.
For a "no-brainer" connection to an existing panel you do need a source of 120-0-120 and you need an approved transfer switch or breaker interlock kit. The Outback transformer can be wired up to convert 0-120 to 120-0-120, but again an electrician should do that wiring and the transfer switching to your main panel.

Thanks. Before my solar was installed I had my panel setup so a few lights and outlets were on L2 and the well pump was on L1 & L2. Used 6-3 wire. If I wanted to run the well pump I would connect the 240v generator to my 30a receptacle. If I wanted to run just the lights and outlets I would make sure the well pump breakers were off and hook up my small inverter generator to L2 of the 30a receptacle.

If I decide to go the transformer route it wouldn't be wired to the panel unless my inverter failed. I would remove the inverter from the panel. I'm off grid. No reason for a transfer switch that I can think of.

I couldn't get an electrician to come up to my place if I wanted to.

While I am sure the electricians on this forum are seasoned pros, out of four electricians I have hired only one really knew his stuff. He was a union guy that moonlighted on evenings and weekends.

The electrician that wired out new home ten years ago left a bundle of neutrals loose and four outlets weren't working. I seem to remember at the time that could have caused an arc fire.

Another couldn't figure out how to fix a three way circuit were only one switch was working (older home). The union guy figured it out in five minutes.

The electrician that installed a 200a subpanel in our new home had the neutrals and grounds bonded in the subpanel.

[Sunking]

I want something with L1, L2, N & G so I can wire it to my main panel if my inverter fails.

Nuetral has no function or purpose on a 240 volt load. Now if you want to run both 240 and 120, that requires a Neutral. But it does not connect to the output of the 4048 Inverter. It connects to the Generator Input of your Inverter.

[Mike90250]

you are getting into a realm where you are wanting to do things that are pushing the limits of budget and barely suited equipment. If you do not understand the many ways a transformer can be wired or made, you may release a lot of smoke from the weakest piece of gear.

I'm not sure we can be of a lot more help, you are obviously over your head at this point.

The outback transformer may be the best (not the cheapest) choice for you, or at least study it's manual and schematic, get help from someone to help you understand the schematic and what the polarity markings on windings are . There may also be an issue of the robustness of the inverter generator, there have been some reports that small ones do not have enough "omph" to energize windings in a transformer. My Honeywell 2Kw and the 4KVA autotransformer I have work ok together, I can't speak for other combinations.

Troubles and the Death Box thread https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/forum...former-problem
This route is for sure, not the average DIY Joe way to go. You need an electrician who understands inrush surge and the limits of inverters and the core of transformers

Or maybe just bite the bullet and get the larger Honda genset with the 240VAC output

Also, at some point Power Factor is going to come into play, and using small gensets, will cause a lot of odd problems to appear.

[hammick]

Some other threads have mentioned generators which can be synchronized. It would be very difficult to do that on a consumer scale except with inverter-type generators. And I am not sure whether any small inverter types offer synchronization.

The Yamaha EF2000is can be synced. So can the Honda EU2000i. I have two of the Wen 56200i generators. Clone of the Yamahas. They can run in parallel.

I would never try it but I have have heard of people syncing inverter generators with a basic 3600rpm generator. They said the inverter generator had to be started last. Also saw where a guy synced a Yamaha inverter with a 12v inverter installed in his van.

People also sync different brands of inverters generators together.

[Sunking]

I'm not sure we can be of a lot more help, you are obviously over your head at this point.

I tried to tell him that, but he wants no part of reality. Let him smoke it.

[hammick]

Nuetral has no function or purpose on a 240 volt load. Now if you want to run both 240 and 120, that requires a Neutral. But it does not connect to the output of the 4048 Inverter. It connects to the Generator Input of your Inverter.

I am talking about hooking a 120v generator to my main breaker panel using a transformer so I can power my 230v well pump and some 120v loads if my SW4048 ever fails. The SW4048 would be hooked to nothing at that point. The transformer would never get installed unless the SW4048 inverter broke. I don't have grid power. There is nothing to transfer since the transformer will be sitting in a box. Is that clear enough?

And the product you recommended isn't what I need.

[Sunking]

Hammick as Mike said, there is not much more anyone can do for you on a Forum. You are not understanding what you are being told or the basic fundamentals. You are in way over your head, and everyone is telling you that. Mike and I are the only ones with balls enough to tell you that.

I DO NOIT CARE IF I HURT YOUR FEELINGS. I would much rather hurt your feelings and run you off, than have you physically hurt yourself. Go to another Forum and have them help you and when you get hurt or blow something up, we will not be responsible. The bottom line is there is really only one way to do what you want. It is really easy, use the product as it was intended using a sufficiently sized 240 VAC generator of at least 3 Kva which IMO is too small. more like 5 to 6 Kva. Any off grid system requires a good generator.

I guarantee you if you try what you have been speaking of is going to end very badly. Everyone is trying to tell you that but you refuse to listen and admit you do not know what you are doing. It is not that you are stupid, it is because you are ignorant and it takes a few years to learn to do what you want to do. No one on a Forum is going to give you a 2 year education and experience. It is beyond the scope of any Forum. Good Luck to you, and get some professional help before you hurt yourself and/or burn your expensive equipment up. .