2000k system only puts out 500 watt why?

[charles2,david000k]

For middle of November in North America that does not seem bad, no matter how big and bright the sun is, in most of North America right now it is at a "Poor Angle" and the atmosphere is eating part of your energy. Also if I remember correctly your panels are fixed mount, so even during mid-day sun when things look good to the naked eye, if the elevation of your panel(s) is not perfectly square to the sun (which is almost impossible with fixed mount) it makes it impossible to match the lab conditions that your panels nameplate wattage was created with.

I am still wondering how to go about buying used batteries. As far as pricing goes I stopped by my local scrap yard trying to buy a few but they refused to sell me any due to lead is toxic and acid is dangerous. So what I decided to do is put up flyers offering to pay other for scrap car and truck batteries for 0.14 cents a pound it is a little more than what local scrap yard is giving but I have no way to weigh a battery. So I was wondering if I could use group size to determine weigh so I am not ripping people off or me?

Solar panel companies really should label their panels better. Like something that says a 250W really only puts out 200W. See this is what made me so mad I got these panel and tested them and they put out exactly what they were marked on the back label 38.1 volts and 8.6 amps with no special treatment and it was a cloudy day they even read on the charge controller of 38 volts when the cc was not charging and pulled down to 36 volts with a 6,000 watt inverter pulling on them feeding my whole home that's with a electric stove, a 2 horse well pump, 4,500watt water heater, and everything else a 1,200 sq house has lights tv fridge deep freezer etcetera and it did that with no problem I was happy then one day in the middle of summer on the hottest day the system went nuts burning wires, disconnect, cc, battery bank and fuse up everything between the panels to the fuse right before the inverter was trash like there was a huge power spike or someone crossed the wires. Nominal peak power(Pmax) 250w with a fall off of 10% in the first 15 years is 225 watts at the end of 15 years it should be no lower than 225 watt for peak output and this is how the warranty reads this is why I am mad about the whole thing solar manufacturers should really think of rewrite their warranties if this is the true capability of their panel. I know it probably sounds like I am mad at you but I'm not it is just frustrating to think that a panel fell off 25 watts in the first I test the other panel I have had in the house today and it's at 24.4 volts by itself with no load. but when I did my loop test it put out over 9 amps. I still have not found out if a 1000 HID lamp would work for testing? And the new solenoid cc the guy gave me is acting up it is hot right now at 8:30 at night no sun and the inverter is off so the only power going to it is from the battery bank and I thought it was stuck in the off position again but I checked and it's not. for some reason when it is off the solenoid gets super hot which is probably what caused the last one to burn up. IDK sorry I got of on a rant I hope you all are well with all this isis junk going on and remember to be safe.

[LETitROLL]

I am still wondering how to go about buying used batteries. As far as pricing goes I stopped by my local scrap yard trying to buy a few but they refused to sell me any due to lead is toxic and acid is dangerous. So what I decided to do is put up flyers offering to pay other for scrap car and truck batteries for 0.14 cents a pound it is a little more than what local scrap yard is giving but I have no way to weigh a battery. So I was wondering if I could use group size to determine weigh so I am not ripping people off or me?

Solar panel companies really should label their panels better. Like something that says a 250W really only puts out 200W. See this is what made me so mad I got these panel and tested them and they put out exactly what they were marked on the back label 38.1 volts and 8.6 amps with no special treatment and it was a cloudy day they even read on the charge controller of 38 volts when the cc was not charging and pulled down to 36 volts with a 6,000 watt inverter pulling on them feeding my whole home that's with a electric stove, a 2 horse well pump, 4,500watt water heater, and everything else a 1,200 sq house has lights tv fridge deep freezer etcetera and it did that with no problem I was happy then one day in the middle of summer on the hottest day the system went nuts burning wires, disconnect, cc, battery bank and fuse up everything between the panels to the fuse right before the inverter was trash like there was a huge power spike or someone crossed the wires. Nominal peak power(Pmax) 250w with a fall off of 10% in the first 15 years is 225 watts at the end of 15 years it should be no lower than 225 watt for peak output and this is how the warranty reads this is why I am mad about the whole thing solar manufacturers should really think of rewrite their warranties if this is the true capability of their panel. I know it probably sounds like I am mad at you but I'm not it is just frustrating to think that a panel fell off 25 watts in the first I test the other panel I have had in the house today and it's at 24.4 volts by itself with no load. but when I did my loop test it put out over 9 amps. I still have not found out if a 1000 HID lamp would work for testing? And the new solenoid cc the guy gave me is acting up it is hot right now at 8:30 at night no sun and the inverter is off so the only power going to it is from the battery bank and I thought it was stuck in the off position again but I checked and it's not. for some reason when it is off the solenoid gets super hot which is probably what caused the last one to burn up. IDK sorry I got of on a rant I hope you all are well with all this isis junk going on and remember to be safe.

Sounds like your flyers might be a good idea for getting used batteries, you should be able to get average weights for various sizes off of manufacturers sites on the internet.

[jflorey2]

Solar panel companies really should label their panels better. Like something that says a 250W really only puts out 200W.

No, they really put out 250 watts under STC (standard temperatures and conditions.) That means 25C and 1000 watts per square meter. And that might happen in say Canada during spring where it rained the day before, it is now severe clear, the temperature is 5C and the wind is blowing. The Sun warms the panels to 25C and you actually get their rated power. Having STC always mean the same thing is very important because you can accurately compare panel A to panel B to see which gives you more power.

But in summer your panels are going to be closer to 50C (they get hot in the sun) the sky won't always be perfectly clear and your panels will get dirty over time. Plus, of course, off-axis operation will reduce your total power. Which is why 210W from a 250W is more likely in "real world" conditions.

(BTW if you don't like STC there is a measurement called PTC which is much more indicative of real world conditions.)

then one day in the middle of summer on the hottest day the system went nuts burning wires, disconnect, cc, battery bank and fuse up everything between the panels to the fuse right before the inverter was trash like there was a huge power spike or someone crossed the wires.

That has nothing to do with how those panels are rated. That is simply a poorly designed system.

I still have not found out if a 1000 HID lamp would work for testing?

No. Let's say you do that and you get 9 watts out of your 250 watt panel when it's under the HID lamp. Then you move the light around and tilt the panel differently and it gives you 10 watts. What does that tell you? Nothing really.

And the new solenoid cc the guy gave me is acting up it is hot right now at 8:30 at night no sun and the inverter is off so the only power going to it is from the battery bank and I thought it was stuck in the off position again but I checked and it's not. for some reason when it is off the solenoid gets super hot which is probably what caused the last one to burn up.

Get a real charge controller. This solenoid design is going to cost you a lot in the long run.

[inetdog]

No it's a 250 watt panel putting out maybe 208W and we cut out most if not all the other factors by only testing just the panel only when we do current or amp's and on perfect condition day I won't even set up to test if there is a chance of light clouds it has to be a perfectly clear day before I waste my time setting up. That is probably why some readings were off today. An I got to be pulling over 250 watt because my inverter puts out 6000 watts easy and sucked the bank completely dry and burnt out my second to last 250 amp fuse in the process but the fuse burn up because they are rated at 32V and the panels should peak at 38V and 8 amps I have solenoid cc and MPPT built in to the inverter I even open the inverter up to blow out dust and check it has huge coils and a mess load of the flat diode I have seen in other MPPT cc and for $2000 it better really be MPPT. I will have to do a update when I get more time this thread is getting long.

What will happen is that if the inverter is designed to put out 1200W from a 12V battery and you put that load on it the current into the DC input of the inverter will be something upward of 100A. (More if the efficiency of the inverter is low.) But that does not mean that you should use a 100A fuse on the input (or on the battery). When the battery voltage drops under load and at the low end of charge down to 10v the inverter will be drawing 120A to get the same 1200W input power.
And if you have a load which has a startup surge, such as a motor or an incandescent lamp the current into the inverter can be as much as twice that (240A) for a few seconds.
A 100A fuse can handle 120A indefinitely as long as the fuse holder and connections are good. Above 130A it will blow in anywhere up to three or four minutes, to close to instant on a really high overload.
For a fuse on the DC circuit from the panels to the CC, there is a chance that the CC will draw up to Isc of the panels under some fault conditions rather than just Imp.
If the fuse holder terminals do not make good contact with the fuse or if you have a loose wire connection to the fuse holder that will increase the temperature of the fuse and cause it to blow at less than the rated current.

Typical aftermarket automotive fuse holders are often not good for that current level on a continuous basis. And whatever the reason, when the fuse finally blows the high voltage will cause an arc which will keep current flowing and dissipate hundreds of watts in the fuse and holder, potentially destroying the whole thing and catching on fire. Given a 32V DC fuse rating and a 38V Vmp you will have a real problem. And if the panel Vmp is 38, the panel Voc which is what will be trying to keep the arc going, could be as much as 46V.

[charles2,david000k]

Just want to let you guys know I have not forgotten about you and will do a update on the next panel on the next good day. But I did have a few question a little off topic I been meaning to ask.

1. I want to run DC back up lights in my home to all the rooms. What is the safest and most cost effective way to go 12V or 24V and what Awg wire and lights should I use?

2. I burn wood all winter here because it's free we have a major wood betel problem in our area and we constantly get people to ask us to come in and cut these trees down in the winter to try and control the wood betel population. So I want to put a heating loop in my wood stove and produce steam and wanted to run a small steam engine off that loop to produce DC current to charge the bank but steam engines are a dead thing now day. Does anyone know where I could pick up a small one to run a PMA?

3. I have a 24 volt panel that only puts off 24.4V and 8 amp can I directly run a 12V water pump off it with no batteries? This is the panel the distributor had me cut the back off the junction box off and replaced the diodes then was further damaged in shipping. It was putting out 29V before the diodes were replaced then dropped to 26V after that then the panel was cracked and it dropped again to 24.4 to 24.7. I just need the pump to fill water tanks as needed. I think the pump is rated 12V at 6 or 7 amps it's a sureflow pump I pulled out of a motorhome.

[bcroe]

I want to put a heating loop in my wood stove and produce steam and wanted to run a small steam engine off that loop to produce DC current to charge the bank but steam engines are a dead thing now day. Does anyone know where I could pick up a small one to run a PMA?

3. I have a 24 volt panel that only puts off 24.4V and 8 amp can I directly run a 12V water pump off it with no batteries? This is the panel the distributor had me cut the back off the junction box off and replaced the diodes then was further damaged in shipping. It was putting out 29V before the diodes were replaced then dropped to 26V after that then the panel was cracked and it dropped again to 24.4 to 24.7. I just need the pump to fill water tanks as needed.

You are not going to run a steam engine with a heating loop. You would need a full blown boiler matched
to the engine. I'd suggest looking into a much simpler Peltier Junction which is lower efficiency, but has
no moving parts. Any cracked panel, I'd expect to die a slow death as moisture seeps in. Bruce Roe

[jflorey2]

1. I want to run DC back up lights in my home to all the rooms. What is the safest and most cost effective way to go 12V or 24V and what Awg wire and lights should I use?

24V requires thinner gauge wire for the wiring runs, which means it will be cheaper. However there are more devices available for 12V. Use fuses/breakers based on the smallest wire gauge in the run, the temperature rating of the wire and how many conductors you are running together.

2. I burn wood all winter here because it's free we have a major wood betel problem in our area and we constantly get people to ask us to come in and cut these trees down in the winter to try and control the wood betel population. So I want to put a heating loop in my wood stove and produce steam and wanted to run a small steam engine off that loop to produce DC current to charge the bank but steam engines are a dead thing now day. Does anyone know where I could pick up a small one to run a PMA?

Won't work.

3. I have a 24 volt panel that only puts off 24.4V and 8 amp can I directly run a 12V water pump off it with no batteries?

Sure, but you will need something called an LCB (linear current booster) to allow the pump to start reliably. They are about $150.

[charles2,david000k]

You are not going to run a steam engine with a heating loop. You would need a full blown boiler matched
to the engine. I'd suggest looking into a much simpler Peltier Junction which is lower efficiency, but has
no moving parts. Any cracked panel, I'd expect to die a slow death as moisture seeps in. Bruce Roe

I don't know my stove gets pretty hot it set up to work a lot like a rocket stove and my heating loop is in the mouth of the flue pipe I melt lead and aluminum in it some times and when I first started out with the heating loop I started with a water grade copper which worked out fine until the water ran out then the pipe started to warp and melt copper melts somewhere around 1,900 F. It's a shame about this broken panel I sealed it up with silicon while in the house and got the humidity down as low as I could I think it was around 40% that day and the brakes are very small. really small 3 of them about the size of a pencil eraser and did not come through the front of the glass just the white backing and cracked the cells themself but like I said I sealed them up with silicon. What do you think the life span could be if you had to put a number on it?

It is looking like I will be getting some reading today off of panel number 3 it's been raining the past two or three day and had some clouds this morning but we are clear and blue now but when I set up I got 35V off all 7 panels. so we are looking better and better every day.

[charles2,david000k]

24V requires thinner gauge wire for the wiring runs, which means it will be cheaper. However there are more devices available for 12V. Use fuses/breakers based on the smallest wire gauge in the run, the temperature rating of the wire and how many conductors you are running together.

Won't work.

Sure, but you will need something called an LCB (linear current booster) to allow the pump to start reliably. They are about $150.

What gauge would I run for a 12V supply about 70ft max. I just want to run lights off this but the home is 40ft long so I figure 70ft gives me room for obstickal I might have to work around from power source to fuse box.

[jflorey2]

I don't know my stove gets pretty hot it set up to work a lot like a rocket stove and my heating loop is in the mouth of the flue pipe I melt lead and aluminum in it some times and when I first started out with the heating loop I started with a water grade copper which worked out fine until the water ran out then the pipe started to warp and melt copper melts somewhere around 1,900 F.

Temperature is not the same as heat. It's easy to generate a very high temperature; much harder to generate enough heat to run a steam engine. (And the smaller it is, the less efficient it is.)

What gauge would I run for a 12V supply about 70ft max. I just want to run lights off this but the home is 40ft long so I figure 70ft gives me room for obstickal I might have to work around from power source to fuse box.

What current will you need? (you can get this from the total wattage of lights you plan to run)

[charles2,david000k]

24V requires thinner gauge wire for the wiring runs, which means it will be cheaper. However there are more devices available for 12V. Use fuses/breakers based on the smallest wire gauge in the run, the temperature rating of the wire and how many conductors you are running together.

Won't work.

Sure, but you will need something called an LCB (linear current booster) to allow the pump to start reliably. They are about $150.

What does a LCB do exactly I would suspect it would work like a capacitor? Or would it bring the 24.4V down to 12V and boost current. I am still learning about capacitors they are (kinda) like a battery in that they hold a charge but not the same at a battery. I am pretty sure a capacitor dumps their power all at one time and has no electrolyte just two metal sheets that hold the charge. While a battery can be slowly drained. Like I said I am always learning so please feel free to correct me I don't want to lean the wrong thing!

[inetdog]

What does a LCB do exactly I would suspect it would work like a capacitor? Or would it bring the 24.4V down to 12V and boost current. I am still learning about capacitors they are (kinda) like a battery in that they hold a charge but not the same at a battery. I am pretty sure a capacitor dumps their power all at one time and has no electrolyte just two metal sheets that hold the charge. While a battery can be slowly drained. Like I said I am always learning so please feel free to correct me I don't want to lean the wrong thing!

OK, first the LCB. The problem with a direct panel to pump connection is that the panel Vmp voltage will not go down as the panel power goes down, so a constant resistance at the pump will cause the panel voltage to be pulled down from Vmp cutting the efficiency of the power transfer from panel to pump by a large fraction. Easily half the power lost and the pump may not even have enough current to start but sit there with its motor coils cooking without water flow to cool them (in the case of a submersible pump, that is.)

As the available panel current goes down the LCB will take the available current at the Vmp voltage and convert it to a higher current at a lower voltage. That lower voltage will still go down at some point to reduce the power drain of the pump, but the pump will get the maximum panel power without waste.
The LCB may also include a low (output) voltage cutoff to protect the pump motor.
It is a lot like an MPPT CC except that the output voltage is not fixed, it is varied to match the available power with the pump acting as a constant resistance rather than a constant voltage load.

As for the capacitor, charge is charge and can be withdrawn from the capacitor either slowly or all at once, whichever you need for the application. The problem is that the voltage across the capacitor varies linearly with the charge it is holding. That means that the load has to be able to tolerate a factor of two variation in input power in order to get 3/4 of the stored power of the capacitor out. The battery voltage is restricted to a much smaller range between max and min SOC for operation.

[jflorey2]

What does a LCB do exactly I would suspect it would work like a capacitor? Or would it bring the 24.4V down to 12V and boost current.

Sort of. If a motor wants 12 volts 5 amps, and you give it a supply limited to 12 volts 1 amp (i.e. a panel in the morning with very low angle sun) it won't start up. It will just sit there and get hot. However, if you give it a supply limited to 2 volts at 6 amps, the motor will start and just run more slowly. The LCB performs this impedance transformation.

I am still learning about capacitors they are (kinda) like a battery in that they hold a charge but not the same at a battery. I am pretty sure a capacitor dumps their power all at one time and has no electrolyte just two metal sheets that hold the charge. While a battery can be slowly drained. Like I said I am always learning so please feel free to correct me I don't want to lean the wrong thing!

An LCB does not work like a capacitor, although LCB's contain capacitors.

Both batteries and capacitors can be slowly drained. One difference is that batteries have specific voltages you have to charge and discharge them at; capacitors can be used from zero volts up to their rated voltage.

Some capacitors have two metal sheets with a dielectric between them. Some capacitors have electrolyte that functions as a dielectric. (They are called, unsurprisingly, electrolytic capacitors.)

[charles2,david000k]

Looks like panel number 3 is going to check out at good. peak voltage was at 35 and the low was 23 but the 23V was under a hard load.


10am to 5:30 pm I pulled these reading of the panel


Wh 319.5
Ah 10.928
Wp 205.9
Vm 00.00
Ap 7.32

Not sure why the meter is not keeping track of the Volt max I will have to check the manual unless some else might know. But I do know when I came in for lunch I look at the inside meter and it read at 35V and I had to shut the water heater off when it pulled the panels down to 23V and tried to cook the fuse once again. I think I am going to take that heating loop and feed it to the water heater it would serve a better purpose there. would I have to put a inline pump for the heating loop? Or would the method of heat rises work to push the water through the system?

[charles2,david000k]

panel number 4
7am to 4pm
temp 62F

Vm .41?
Ah 2.17
Ap 5.93
Wp 185.3? 64.7W off
Wh 66.3

It was sunny, clear and a cool 62F

Your opinion am I still within good range? The Vm volt max has been off with all readings or nonexistent but I found out the Vm is also related to the back up power supply I have hook in. When the 9volt backup is disconnected Vm reads 00.00 to 29.81 with all readings. With the backup power supply I get a Vm reading of .52 to .40 so that is why the Vm reading is off. I think I couldn't find any thing in the manual about this anomaly.