Only half the breakers working? - Help Please!

[muskogeezeke]

So I have a small system I am attempting to power a small cabin with. I have wired the cabin with some normal 120v ac outlets and lights.

The cabin has a 200-amp breaker with some normal breakers, GFCs and Arc Fault breakers.

I am running the battery to a renogy 500w inverter, then I plugged in a cord I made from 12/2. Then ran the 12/2 black to where the SE cable would go in the breaker box, the neutral to the neutral bus bar and the ground to ground bar.

HOWEVER, only half of the circuits work. It's every other slot. I can re arrange the circuits and this consistently works. My voltage pen shows no voltage when they are in the bad slots on the breaker.

Do I need to pig tail the black from my 12/2 cable so that I have two cables coming into the servience entrance screws? I have to screws for grid power but only have one with a wire in it.

Note, this is to only test the system before I put up insulation and sheet rock.

Any help would be great.

[SunEagle]

So I have a small system I am attempting to power a small cabin with. I have wired the cabin with some normal 120v ac outlets and lights.

The cabin has a 200-amp breaker with some normal breakers, GFCs and Arc Fault breakers.

I am running the battery to a renogy 500w inverter, then I plugged in a cord I made from 12/2. Then ran the 12/2 black to where the SE cable would go in the breaker box, the neutral to the neutral bus bar and the ground to ground bar.

HOWEVER, only half of the circuits work. It's every other slot. I can re arrange the circuits and this consistently works. My voltage pen shows no voltage when they are in the bad slots on the breaker.

Do I need to pig tail the black from my 12/2 cable so that I have two cables coming into the servience entrance screws? I have to screws for grid power but only have one with a wire in it.

Note, this is to only test the system before I put up insulation and sheet rock.

Any help would be great.

I would suspect your panel is rated 120/240volt and your inverter is only rated 120v so only half the panel will get energized by that inverter.

If your cabin is "off grid" and you want to use all of the breaker spaces in the main panel you will need to provide a "balanced" 120/240volt supply to it. If you plan on connecting the panel to the grid then you will have to unwire the inverter at that time or replace the inverter with a legal Hybrid type.

Also, I would not install a pig tail from one of the SE screws to the other side. Chances would be to easily overload that 500w inverter with more than one circuit breaker since it is only good for ~ 5amps at 120volt.

[muskogeezeke]

I would suspect your panel is rated 120/240volt and your inverter is only rated 120v so only half the panel will get energized by that inverter.

If your cabin is "off grid" and you want to use all of the breaker spaces in the main panel you will need to provide a "balanced" 120/240volt supply to it. If you plan on connecting the panel to the grid then you will have to unwire the inverter at that time or replace the inverter with a legal Hybrid type.

Also, I would not install a pig tail from one of the SE screws to the other side. Chances would be to easily overload that 500w inverter with more than one circuit breaker since it is only good for ~ 5amps at 120volt.

Thanks. I suspected that was the case and since the post moved the breakers all to working locations. And I wasnt' willing to pigtail it without some research, so thank you for the info!

Everything tested great. The light flickered when a higher wattage appliance was plugged in, but I suspect I may need a bigger inverter.

[inetdog]

Thanks. I suspected that was the case and since the post moved the breakers all to working locations. And I wasnt' willing to pigtail it without some research, so thank you for the info!

Everything tested great. The light flickered when a higher wattage appliance was plugged in, but I suspect I may need a bigger inverter.

Caution for down the road:
Some electricians will use a type of wiring called a MultiWire Branch Circuit in which there are two hot wires and one common neutral in a run of circuit. It may use a three wire nonmetallic sheathed cable (NM, often called by the brand name Romex(TM)) with one white, one black, one red and one bare copper ground (EGC).
If they did that, the assumption made was that the two hot wires would come from opposite bus polarities so that the neutral current would cancel out at full load.
If you moved the breakers around so that you have an MWBC where both hots are fed from the same (working) bus in the panel the neutral current can end up being twice what the wire can safely carry.
If you are feeding everything from a small (3kW or less) inverter, then you will not get enough load to cause a problem with the neutral.

But moving breakers around in a normal house panel is not a job for DIY unless you already know about MWBCs.

[muskogeezeke]

Caution for down the road:
Some electricians will use a type of wiring called a MultiWire Branch Circuit in which there are two hot wires and one common neutral in a run of circuit. It may use a three wire nonmetallic sheathed cable (NM, often called by the brand name Romex(TM)) with one white, one black, one red and one bare copper ground (EGC).
If they did that, the assumption made was that the two hot wires would come from opposite bus polarities so that the neutral current would cancel out at full load.
If you moved the breakers around so that you have an MWBC where both hots are fed from the same (working) bus in the panel the neutral current can end up being twice what the wire can safely carry.
If you are feeding everything from a small (3kW or less) inverter, then you will not get enough load to cause a problem with the neutral.

But moving breakers around in a normal house panel is not a job for DIY unless you already know about MWBCs.

Thanks, I appreciate all the advice I can get.

I used 12-2 throughout the house, so there is only 1 hot wire. I wired it myself and kept it very simple. No 240v outlets, just a few standard outlets, some GFCIs in the kitchen area, and lights. I put Arc Fault breakers on the outlets in the bedrooms per the National Electric Code.

[Bucho]

Also, I would not install a pig tail from one of the SE screws to the other side. Chances would be to easily overload that 500w inverter with more than one circuit breaker since it is only good for ~ 5amps at 120volt.

That isn't actually a reason not to do it, yeah his inverter will shut down before a single breakers trips but if he wants to use a bunch of breakers to organize things, *shrug* so what?

[Bucho]

No 240v outlets, just a few standard outlets, some GFCIs in the kitchen area, and lights. I put Arc Fault breakers on the outlets in the bedrooms per the National Electric Code.

Any idea how much power you're constantly loosing to those afc and gfi breakers?

[SunEagle]

That isn't actually a reason not to do it, yeah his inverter will shut down before a single breakers trips but if he wants to use a bunch of breakers to organize things, *shrug* so what?

I agree the decision is up to the OP. But with multiple breakers feeding multiple loads there is a very high chance he will exceed the inverter limit and it will shut down. If it was me I would rather not plug something in knowing it could just shut down by itself. That would be a PIA.

To me it is no different then using a large power strip plugged into a wall outlet and then plug in a bunch of loads into that power strip. If they were all very small loads that would not bother anyone if they lost power then ok.

If it happened to be your cable box or tv and it went off right as your team was about to score a touchdown. Then that would piss me off.

[muskogeezeke]

Any idea how much power you're constantly loosing to those afc and gfi breakers?

Not sure? What's a good way to measure that? I wasn't aware I was going to lose energy to those breakers.

[inetdog]

Not sure? What's a good way to measure that? I wasn't aware I was going to lose energy to those breakers.

Only milliwatts to provide control power to the electronics. Not nearly as much as the parasitic loads of electronics with remote or instant on.
You do have to keep in mind that they will not work properly when connected to an off-grid inverter with sleep functionality since they require control power to be present to detect a fault even when there is no load.

[Bucho]

I agree the decision is up to the OP. But with multiple breakers feeding multiple loads there is a very high chance he will exceed the inverter limit and it will shut down.

Your just making that up, without knowing his load there's no way to make an intelligent prediction about the likelihood he'll overwhelm the inverter. And not recognizing that is why you tried to convince me to spend over $1000 to light two lightbulbs.

[SunEagle]

Your just making that up, without knowing his load there's no way to make an intelligent prediction about the likelihood he'll overwhelm the inverter. And not recognizing that is why you tried to convince me to spend over $1000 to light two lightbulbs.

You are correct I do not know 100% what the OP's loads are or will be.

What I base my prediction on is 40 years in the electrical power & control field across commercial, industrial, educational and RE installations. It comes down to a relatively high percentage of seeing installations where loads were added without thought and planning which led up to overloading circuits, transformers and in a couple of cases inverters. So I am not making it up but believe an electrical piece of equipment can be overloaded if given the opportunity just like bank accounts can be overdrawn if the checkbook is not balanced.

I am not sure how I convinced you to spend over $1000 to light two lightbulbs. But if that is what you believe I won't try to change your mind. I can only say I did not make a penny of that $1000 or received any other compensation so did not benefit in any way.

[Bucho]

You are correct I do not know 100% what the OP's loads are or will be.

What I base my prediction on is 40 years in the electrical power & control field across commercial, industrial, educational and RE installations. It comes down to a relatively high percentage of seeing installations where loads were added without thought and planning which led up to overloading circuits, transformers and in a couple of cases inverters. So I am not making it up but believe an electrical piece of equipment can be overloaded if given the opportunity just like bank accounts can be overdrawn if the checkbook is not balanced.

That sounds real jaded man, just because you've met some idiots isn't actually a good reason to assume a new poster is and heckle them accordingly without ever bothering to find out what's going on. That's a page out of sunkings book.

I am not sure how I convinced you to spend over $1000 to light two lightbulbs.

You didn't I'm nowhere near that dumb. Here's the thread where you tried: http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...of-solar-panel

And you doubled down and tried to justify it again more recently.

[SunEagle]

That sounds real jaded man, just because you've met some idiots isn't actually a good reason to assume a new poster is and heckle them accordingly without ever bothering to find out what's going on. That's a page out of sunkings book.



You didn't I'm nowhere near that dumb. Here's the thread where you tried: http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...of-solar-panel

And you doubled down and tried to justify it again more recently.

Actually I have met more that "some" people that didn't have a clue about electricity and load calculations. I try to make sure people do not short change themselves because overloading something like an inverter or panel usually causes more heartburn then spending a little more up front to properly size their equipment.

As for heckling a new poster. I would rather they understand what they should look at before they get into trouble If you think that is wrong then I would say you are easily offended.

I never pushed you to spend $1000 (maybe $600). I just pointed out that what you had estimated for your loads could easily increase. I was also trying to point out that it is better to buy larger wattage panels (250w) at a lower cost then lower wattage panels (100w) at a higher cost. As I said before I get nothing back from anything you purchase so what you want to spend it your business.

If you don't like my advice then don't listen to me. It may not be what you want to hear or believe but it is not bad advice just cautionary.

[Living Large]

That sounds real jaded man, just because you've met some idiots isn't actually a good reason to assume a new poster is and heckle them accordingly without ever bothering to find out what's going on. That's a page out of sunkings book.



You didn't I'm nowhere near that dumb. Here's the thread where you tried: http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...of-solar-panel

And you doubled down and tried to justify it again more recently.

In all candor, you sound like the one who is jaded. First you take a unprovoked shot at Dereck, and then you show you have no regard for the very sage advice of SunEagle. Here is a quote of SunEagle's from the thread you quoted. I don't see where he told you to spend one penny. He described options that would be open if you chose a certain route based on experience:

I understand your need to keep the costs down. What I am trying to get across to you is that starting with a 100 amp panel and an inexpensive PWM type charger will lead to an expensive road should you ever want to enlarge your system. I did that and spent hundreds more than I needed to because I purchased what I thought was low cost and then found out later that it wasn't.

While that website required you to purchase 2 of the 250 watt panels you may be able to find a place to sell you just one. The cost per watt is less than the smaller 100 watt panels and is a good starting point to allow expansion without paying for the higher priced panels.

Just trying to give you some advice before you open your wallet.

I wonder if you would speak to J.P.M. that way, who also gives excellent advice, but closes with "as always, take what you want and scrap the rest." If you don't like the advice people give here, there are other options. You could pay a consultant $125 an hour. Take what you want and scrap the rest - don't say I told you to pay $125 an hour - it's your choice.