Sailboat Power

[SunEagle]

If you don't want to beta test stuff, the Ampair (Aquair) 100 has been built in Poole Dorset since 1973 and it is proven on every trans-ocean racing yacht in existence, on some boats over 55,000 miles at sea without a failure:

http://www.ampair.com/yacht-generators/aquair-100

It mounts on a gimball on your stern rails and is designed to save the generator in the event the prop becomes tangled or hits something. You can see it on the rail and see the tow line to the prop when the boat goes down into a wave trough

Chris. I don't know how you do it. Even that short video made me a little seasick.

I just came back from your neck of the woods. I spent 3 days up in Marinette working on a power quality issue. It was fun to clean off my car Thursday morning after that 6 inches of spring fell on it overnight.

[ChrisOlson]

You kind of gain your "sea legs" after awhile. Not all days are sailing in 12-15 foot seas. Some are pretty calm with only 3 foot seas too. Unless you sail in the North Atlantic or North Sea. Then a calm day is 12-15 foot seas and when it really gets rough the boat is under water most of the time in 30-40 ft seas. Scandinavian sailors are cut from sterncloth. They used to call 'em Vikings and they were feared all over Europe.

It is raining here today. We have not seen liquid water around here since back in November sometime.

[D_e_n_n_i_s]

Forget for a moment that this is happening on a boat ... Just look at the system as a whole.

Going through all the pages, to recap what we have so far:
1. Connect two Kyocera 300 watt solar panels in series to a 60 amp MPPT controller To MPPT Controller, allowing for smaller gauge wire. Place the MPPT controller close to the pair of batteries to which it will connect.

2. Connect MPPT controller to battery bank of 2 MasterVolt Super 8D AGM batteries (12-volt 270AH) with heavier gauge wire. (This should balance the pair of 300 Watt Kyocera panels with a matching pair of batteries).

The MPPT controller will sense the 12-volt battery load and charge it at 12-volts with appropriate amperage.

3. Have a physical switch to change the battery bank that is actively feeding the main panel and supplying power to devices.

--> What is the appropriate type of physical switch as they come in 2 flavors:
a. Most types are "Make before Break" = Can switch banks with the engine running and not fry the alternator.

In this case, house loads should be isolated with a battery isolator and starting bateries always connected to the alternator.
b. "Break then Make" - Switches between battery banks (very normal on a boat to allow combining batteries) should be of this type

--> What are the key points that would best be served with a switch for safety/isolation?

Notes:
Total power consumption is usually in the neighborhood of 4 kWh/day on a 40-50 ft class cruiser, or about 350Ah.

It is best to split your battery bank and have an isolator for the starting battery on the diesel. For one, the isolator prevents huge voltage drop to your onboard electronics during engine crank. And it disconnects the house loads from the starting battery to prevent discharge of your starting battery when under sail. It will reconnect your starting battery and charge it when you have a charging source available. During the day you run on Bank 1 and when nightfall comes if Bank1 isn't fully charged, then switch to your fully charged Bank 2 for the night. Bank2 has charging priority the next morning, and if you have adequate charging power, you can combine Bank1 and Bank2 and change them both.

Your boat has two grounding systems in it - the bonding system and the electrical grounding system. Keep them isolated from each other.

Electronics to buy:
Buy Bogart Engineering Pentametric Battery Monitor(s) for the system. It measures 1 or 2 battery systems with a common negative. http://www.bogartengineering.com/

--> Controllers hook to your DC panel bus ... More info on this would be helpful to help understand best configuration of controller placement in relation to panels, battery, panel ...

The other thing it sounds like you don't have is an auto-isolator or ACR. Buy one: http://www.bluesea.com/resources/58/...harging_Relays

Note on ACR's:
Battery Isolators and ACRs are intended to distribute current from a charging source to all batteries, but leave the batteries isolated during discharge conditions so they are only impacted by their own loads.

With the ACR or an isolator, the batteries are effectively connected together during charging and disconnected during discharge. The isolator is the simpler of the two approaches, when used with remote sensing chargers and regulators, but without remote sensing the isolator gives poor performance.

--> How do ACR's work in conjunction with Charge Controllers, which also have diodes that act like check valves. What is the best configuration to incorporate ACR's into the system.

--> Can an MPPT Controller manage charging as multi-stage charger, reducing charging amps as battery changes modes, approaching float?

If dynamically configuring panels & MPPT CC to different battery bank:
The proper way is to disconnect solar, then battery, switch things around, and connect battery first, after controller has done self test and is running, then switch PV back on. (Always maintain load)

Hook up inverter only when needed for running an A/C device and only for short periods of time as it eats up stored battery power. Use fully charged bank during the day to be charged afterwards. Inverter-(loads + 15% for losses, or whatever your inverter power curve is).

Overall system:
2 DuoGen D400 Wind Generators with diversion load
2 NCHC 60 with isolating relays for wind generators to isolate them from other charging sources: http://www.flexcharge.com/NCHC-High-...ontroller.html
2-4 Kyocera 300 watt solar panels
1-2 60 Amp MPPT contollers
2-4 MasterVolt Super 8D AGM batteries (12-volt 270AH)
1-2 High voltage DC breakers from Midnight Solar to disconnect panels in series
May add water generator (towed behind boat) to mix

[ChrisOlson]

I still don't fully understand this balancing a pair of 300 Watt Kyocera panels with a matching pair of batteries. Never heard of that before. Never seen 300 watt solar panels on a yacht before either. You ever tried to lift or handle a 300 watt solar panel?

Anyway, made a little video that shows the Bogart Trimetric meter and what it does, in case you've never seen one

[D_e_n_n_i_s]

Actually, I think I originally figured that I would need a 300-watt panel per each battery to maintain a daily supply of power so with the suggestion of running them in series, only having 2 batteries per bank and never switching them around as it could lead to early destruction ... the idea kinda evolved into "matching" a pair of panels to a bank of 2 batteries. To be honest, I prefer the ability to physically switch the panels around to different banks (perhaps fewer banks with more batteries) ... Just throw a towel over the panels, disconnect everything in order ... flip switch to move MPPT controller to different bank ... Whew !! This is work !!

You put 4 of these panels in line and you can power slide to the bow to weigh anchor ... Weeeeeee .. slide back to the cockpit and adjust course ... weeeeee ... slide back to the bow. Miss catchin' that jib and it's worse than being keel-hauled 'cause it's stem to stern !!

Why I could do pushups with these 300 watt panels ... See ... One ... Two ... Two ... Two ... oh crap. I should have started my workout before I left port. Now what am I going to ... oh no ... Shooo ... Shooo Seagull !! It's on the edge of the panel near my face and it's about to .... AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH !!!!

I actually haven't seen that Trimetric Battery Meter ... Ooooooo ... Love that unit -- Shunt is the way to go !! Cycling history ... amp-hours used ... Seriously, thanks for the video !! Gotta get back to work ... I'll check for posts this weekend and reply more thoughtfully then !!

[ChrisOlson]

Actually, I think I originally figured that I would need a 300-watt panel per each battery to maintain a daily supply of power so with the suggestion of running them in series, only having 2 batteries per bank and never switching them around as it could lead to early destruction ... the idea kinda evolved into "matching" a pair of panels to a bank of 2 batteries.

Well, I'll say this Dennis - if you get all that to work there definitely won't be another boat on the planet like it.

[D_e_n_n_i_s]

Basic System

Since a large system doesn't appear to be feasible, let's break this down into a basic system that I can create and maintain. The new system will have the following components:

2 solar panels mounted on a custom arch
1 MPPT Controller
1 High output alternator on my new engine (Can't provide specs because I haven't purchased it yet, but go with standard high-output marine alternator specs)
2 DuoGen Wind Generators with diversion load and isolator - Details for all of this noted previously
2 8D AGM batteries, noted previously, hooked up for charging
2 8D AGM batteries hooked to the main panel
2 8D AGM batteries hooked to the motor for starting and as an emergency reserve

1. If this were your system to use for the next 2 decades, how would you wire it up and what equipment would you employ to make a well monitored, regulated system? Please provide details, perhaps partial or complete schematics and list equipment with how it should be hooked into the system

2. What is the best way to "switch" the pair of 8D AGM batteries hooked to the main panel with the pair of 8D batteries being charged by the various sources? Please provide details, optional schematics and equipment

3. How would you "switch" the engine starting pair of batteries so that they can be occasionally charged as needed? Please provide details, optional schematics and equipment

Assume the system will be used while I'm at anchor, recharging myself with much needed sleep and my electrical system at the same time. Let's also assume that I have tossed all of my A/C devices so that they will never be used onboard. My Aries windvane just arrived and I will use it instead of an autopilot. I will use a piece of metal on the end of a line as a depth gauge. I will use dead reckoning and celestial navigation and will anchor if fog becomes too thick so no radar system, no GPS system, no nav system of any kind. I did not need to communicate with anyone and will rely on myself to get out of dangerous situations so no SSB/Ham radio and a handheld VHF will only be used in the most dire of situations. I will use solar shower bags for heating water to take a shower. For cooking I will use a Lehman's solar oven, either of two Origo non-pressurized alcohol stoves or the propane grill on the aft railing. I appreciate and look forward to the feedback on this more basic system.

[ChrisOlson]

Dennis, it is sounding much more doable. However, I would reconsider not having radar, nav system, depth sounder, and at least a wheel drive autopilot.

You are single handing the yacht and not all days at sea have wind so you will be motoring sometimes. Your wind vane does not work under those circumstances and you have to switch to the electric autopilot. Or spend countless hours at the helm.

Same thing with the radar at night at sea when you want to catch some sleep. The last thing you need is to get woke up by water coming into the boat because you ran into the side of a fishing trawler. A radar with an alarm on it is almost necessary unless you plan on heaving to at night and spending way more days at sea on a passage. We've passed within 150 yards of 1,000 foot freighters at night in fog so thick you could not see from the helm to the bow. You can hear their horn but you can't see the ship unless you got a radar. You'll find that at sea, who has right of way according the USCG "rules of the road" don't apply when you're on a sailing yacht and meeting up with a 1,000 foot ship. They'll run right over you.

Nav system? You can do that these days with a little tablet computer with GPS in it and a marine nav app. They are just as capable as chartplotters these days, with the exception that a chartplotter has NMEA interface to drive your autopilot. But as long as you are using the wind vane as primary anyway, a tablet computer doesn't hardly use any power and they make an excellent GPS charting tool. We use a Samsung Galaxy Tab2 7.0 Android tablet with Navionics in it with vector charts at the chart table in the cabin. It only takes only about 65 watt-hours a day to recharge it. The tablet doubles as your computer on the hook. When you can pull in WiFi with your Rogue WiFi system from a marina someplace you can get you email on it, look at weather, browse the internet etc. So it is a dual-purpose device that takes almost no power to run it.

I would also get the battery banks down to two - house power and propulsion starting. Put in a simple 1,2,Both,Off battery selector and an ACR for the starting battery. The wiring diagrams for these commonly used components are available from outfits like Blue Sea Marine Systems, so no sense to posting them here.

Balmar, Electromaax and Mark Grasser all produce marine HO alternators. A Series 6 160A Balmar, or equivalent, will be needed for an offshore cruiser with a big house bank. The specialty marine alternators are very expensive because, unlike automotive, the marine ones are rated for 100% duty cycle at full output. They are massive and designed to be able to actually hook 1/0 cables to them. One from any one of those three companies will serve you well.

Also, you are evidently in the process of a repower in the engine room. Don't scrimp on horsepower for an offshore cruiser. I think your boat originally had like a 75hp Westerbeke or Universal diesel in it. I would go with a 100hp Yanmar. You can get parts at just about any port on earth for Yanmar diesels. The old Westerbeke's are very good engines, but hard to get parts for at some of the more obscure ports. And I would also consider a folding prop with your repower. Your boat is not exceedingly fast in the first place and a fixed prop slows it down a good 1/2 knot.

[ChrisOlson]

Dennis, I did not probably adequately explain the battery bank setup. Your house power bank is normally split into two halves and the battery selector can select which bank you are on. Normally, if properly managed by the captain, the house power banks stay at close to the same SOC. However, it gives you the option of switching to the higher charged bank for nightime when your onboard loads are the highest and you have the least amount of incoming power available to charge.

Your starting battery for your diesel will be (usually) a single Group 29 and it is also a deep cycle battery, or a hybrid deep-cycle/starting battery. The ACR (Automatic Charging Relay) will connect it to the system when there is charging power available.

The Trimetric (or Pentametric) battery meters are a good tool to use onboard to manage your batteries. The Trimetric can track SOC on one bank and give a voltage reading on second bank or battery to monitor it. The Pentametric can track SOC on up to three battery banks. We use a Trimetric and keep SOC on our primary house bank and use the B+2 wire on it to monitor voltage on the second (reserve) bank. The starting battery has its own voltmeter on it so it is not necessary to hook the Trimetric to it.

Coastal cruisers will typically not split the house bank into a primary and reserve. But offshore cruisers typically split it. That may be what you said, and I just skipped over it. So thought I'd better explain it a little better.

[D_e_n_n_i_s]

Chris-Thanks for your post providing insight and help !!

If I am able to power radar, then I'd love to have it, but the larger battery system I posted about previously seems impossible to set up from the replies that I received. Radar consumes a significant amount of power.

I have a handheld GPS that I can integrate into my laptop so it is always a possibility. I would never rely on electronic navigation as a matter of course. Having decades of experience in I.T., I can manage WiFi connectivity as it remains a non-secure network component.

Battery Banks: 2 House Power Banks, Propulsion (Engine Bank a.k.a. Emergency Power Bank)
A manual isolator switch (1,2,Both,Off) does not handle all 3 banks. There are also amperage limits for many models of these switch types.
Phrase "Manual Isolator Switch" borrowed with respect from Chris ...

In the past, I have used a pair of Group 27 batteries for the engine to provide redundancy and ample power when needed, though I would prefer the newer Group 29 batteries now. Stepping these up to a pair of 8D batteries, however, will provide an additional emergency bank and keep all batteries of the same type for charging simplicity. If SOC can be well managed, then having the same battery type may allow for multiple battery bank charging, but I leave that idea for further commentary and consideration.

I will be installing a Yanmar diesel. Tom at the full-service marina here is a Westerbeke dealer and although he sells the generators, he was candid with me and said he would not recommend their propulsion motors. My previous two motors were both Pathfinder 50's - Marinized VW engine, 50HP. Junk. There are very few decent diesel motor manufacturers and I believe Yanmar to be the best, reasonably priced marine diesel motor. I fully agree about not scrimping on horsepower - We'll see what we can fit into the space.

Thanks for the recommendation of manufacturers of high output alternators !! That's a huge help. I would expect them to be very expensive, but that's the cost of efficiency, productivity and safety in a marine environment.

I have looked into feathering props before and it is an excellent recommendation. I researched the Pathfinder motor and existing transmission for impact of prop spin and both were fine, but I'll have to look into the same concerns for the Yanmar - Leaving it in gear, out of gear, etc. If there is money left over at the end of the day, I would love to go with a feathering prop.

I appreciate your follow-up post as it did add clarity. I'm still trying to figure out the switching between a split house power bank, propulsion battery bank and how charging should be set up either to be "switched" between banks or "constantly on" all banks with this ACR (Autoamtic Charging Relay) device somehow managing charging power across the 3 banks without picking up the load from the DuoGen wind generators and/or interfering with/being interfered by these wind generators. That doesn't even consider how best to wire in the engine HO alternator. The devil is in the details.

Love the Pentametric and will definitely be purchasing one of these. Thanks again for the reference !!

To recap:
2 House Battery Banks
1 Engine Starter Bank
1 Manual Switch so far ... Need another way to handle 3rd battery bank
? ACR(s) [Automatic Charging Relay(s)]-At least 1, maybe more
Aforementioned equipment two posts up ...

Thanks again for all the terrific feedback and please keep it coming. I'm hopeful we can make this new basic system work and maybe even get enough power for radar to let me get some sleep without running into tanker ships, avoid obstacles in the fog, and generally stay alive ...

[Naptown]

My personal favorite for small diesel marine propulsion is Kubota. There is only one part that is unique from tractor engines to marine and that is the heat exchanger.
Replacement parts are much less expensive and available globally.

[ChrisOlson]

I appreciate your follow-up post as it did add clarity. I'm still trying to figure out the switching between a split house power bank, propulsion battery bank and how charging should be set up either to be "switched" between banks or "constantly on" all banks with this ACR (Autoamtic Charging Relay) device somehow managing charging power across the 3 banks without picking up the load from the DuoGen wind generators and/or interfering with/being interfered by these wind generators. That doesn't even consider how best to wire in the engine HO alternator. The devil is in the details.

All your charging sources go to the main bus and whichever battery bank is connected via the selector gets charged. The ACR "senses" charging going on on the main bus and if the voltage is adequate it connects the starting battery to charge it. If voltage falls below the nominal charging voltage then it disconnects the starting battery to save it for starting. It also disconnects the starting battery from the system if, for instance, you have been on the hook and the system is charging from shore power or solar panels and you go to start your diesel. To prevent huge voltage drop to all your house loads the ACR disconnects the starting battery from the rest of the system so all your lights and electronics don't go dim on you during engine cranking.

We manage our house bank by running on Bat 1 normally (the primary) and save Bat 2 (reserve) for night time use. When morning comes we look at the condition of the batteries and switch the bank that's easiest to get charged back up with the Ampair and solar panels during the day. When that bank gets up to full we switch to other one and charge it with what we got left for the day. When night comes again we got a fully charged bank to switch to. If we end up running the diesel and motoring for a day because of either sailing to weather or no wind, then we switch the selector to BOTH and use that big alternator to charge both banks up.

On the hook we also turn the selector to BOTH and let the solar panels charge the batteries. We use very little power on the hook because we take the dinghy into shore and spend most of our time on land when we get someplace. We only come back to the boat at night to sleep - we even eat at restaurants or whatever when we're on the hook. And if it's hotter than hell and humid we'll say f&*k it and sleep in a motel with air conditioning. Especially when the other idiots in the harbor are running their diesel generators and Honda EU2000's to run their onboard A/C, and then they add stereos blasting some crappy music that we don't like at maximum volume all hours of the night. You can't sleep anyway with all the noise going on.

[D_e_n_n_i_s]

Aha, things are coming more into focus. I was thinking in terms of charging batteries while disconnected from the main panel, but actually I should be running the solar panels and wind generators to the main panel and charge any batteries that get connected to the main panel ... If I'm understanding this correctly ...

Do you use 1 ACR between each battery bank and the main panel? The ACR would sense, for example, more charge coming in from the solar panels and wind generators than what is being used by devices hooked to the main panel and connects the bank to receive the charge ... I don't think I'm understanding that correctly because the bank would also connect regardless to provide power - except for the starting batteries, which is probably why you used that as the specific example.

I like the old school way of connecting Bat 1 and Bat 2, which is how I used to do it on my larger power boats, but being better educated about charging banks of batteries at dissimilar states of charge, I wonder if there isn't a better way to charge these battery banks at the same time - Thoughts ??

Sooooo, maybe hook the starting batteries via ACR to main panel so that it starts to charge if there is sufficient charging going to the main panel and disconnects if there isn't ?? I have a separate switch on the board for house power and engine power so the two don't mix - So charging would need to be set up to both circuits. Not sure the best way to do this ...

I'll spend more time on the boat while on the hook, but, hopefully, can manage my urge to use my shotgun to assist my neighbors get rid of those large magnets, which could throw off their compass reading ... Thinking only of their health and well-being from safe navigation

[ChrisOlson]

My personal favorite for small diesel marine propulsion is Kubota. There is only one part that is unique from tractor engines to marine and that is the heat exchanger.
Replacement parts are much less expensive and available globally.

We had a 180hp Volvo Penta in our H-R 54 and absolutely loved that engine. It was quiet, powerful, started with just a bump and pretty miserly on fuel. The only problem is that you can't afford the $40,000 price tag for one for a repower.

The Yanmar in our Legend is a noisy freaking thing. But it's good on fuel.

[Naptown]

We had a 180hp Volvo Penta in our H-R 54 and absolutely loved that engine. It was quiet, powerful, started with just a bump and pretty miserly on fuel. The only problem is that you can't afford the $40,000 price tag for one for a repower.

The Yanmar in our Legend is a noisy freaking thing. But it's good on fuel.

I had a Yanmar in my last sailboat. 10 HP 1 Cylinder That thing would rattle your teeth at an idle and noise.................