Sailboat Power

[ChrisOlson]

I'm not following why multiple banks of batteries

If I could offer a bit of advice for Dennis, and maybe consider heeding it?

Marine electrical systems are WAY more complicated than land-based off-grid power. There are not only legal issues involved when you get the boat inspected and documented for sailing in international waters and into foreign ports - there are safety issues at sea. On the legal issues, if you think you're going to sail into a foreign port without providing Customs and the Port Authority all the paperwork that says both you and your boat are safe and legal and meet all requirements - well...... you might be spending more time at sea than you planned on because they won't let you in. Even down the tiniest things like what kind of anti-fouling do you have on the hull will cause you to be banned from some ports.

On the safety side, having and electrical fire or failure at sea is not an option. OK?

PLEASE - consult a qualified marine electrician on this. Not to be harsh or anything, but Dennis it is obvious you do not understand marine electrical systems. And we cannot provide you will all the details here on a forum of things were you insist on doing it wrong. Just because you consult a qualified marine electrician does not mean you can't do the work yourself. But when the USCG inspects your boat for the Federal Documentation on it, believe me - those guys do not miss ANYTHING. Instead of having to go back home and re-do it all, consult the marine electrician so you make sure you got it right the first time.

Go to your marina and tell the service manager you want to pay for a marine electrician to look over your boat and give you the design and proper way to do it, but that you want to do the work yourself. You can also hire a Marine Surveyor to do this, and that might be a better option if you questions on other aspects of the boat like condition of the steering system, propulsion, standing rigging, plumbing, etc..

[D_e_n_n_i_s]

Mike - Just saw your post ...

OK, multiple banks is just to pull a set of batteries out of the mix for powering the board when they get close to 50% so I don't pull them lower than that and it allows me to set them aside for charging in an isolated manner.

Cloudy days ... That's what the pair of DuoGen wind generators are for ... $6K worth - Always have wind at sea. May also buy a Sailgen when DuoGen comes out with them (not advertised yet, still being designed).

Not a couple of 300 watt Kyocera (or other brand if there is something better) panels, but 2 panels per MPPT controller per bank of 2 batteries. With 6-8 batteries, I'll have 6-8 panels (at current design specs - May need to bump that up for reality).

Reboots itself ... Hmmm, I know that MPPT controllers measure current to select best performance of charging, but never thought about it resetting what it learned when reconnected to a different bank. It would have to go through another learning curve. Interesting ... This is a new thought for me ...

OK, I like the idea of all chargers connected at all times, but knowing that I have to keep banks of batteries with dissimilar states of charge isolated, I need to understand how to maintain this isolation even as I connect batteries to the main panel to supply power - Seems that would interconnect them ... unless this ACR thing can keep them isolated even when connected to the main panel ... Got to read more on that as it is promising.

[D_e_n_n_i_s]

It may have been lost in the long sailing converations ... uh-hem, but I did note that I was having this installed professionally - NOT by me. Still, it's extremely helpful to understand these systems and be able to guide even a professional, who is not going to typically deal with this type of system that I'm creating for full self-sufficiency and this large a system (6-8 of the most powerful 8D batteries is significant). Nobody truly creates a self-sufficient system from what I've seen for reading on numerous forums over the years. The more I can know to ask for in such a system to monitor and regulate all component safely, the better system I will have in the end.

[D_e_n_n_i_s]

For the record, I've had to rewire every boat I've had and that amounts to dozens of small boats. I've rewired this boat, which initially had the ground going to an aluminum head of the Pathfinder motor ... seriously. All of the A/C and D/C wires went to a 1' x 1' wood board initially. I added teak boards between stringers onto which I put terminal blocks with separate wires to all lights and devices so that each one is labeled and can be traced and/or cut in an emergency. For sealing connection ends, I not only use that liquid tape, but use Scotchkote, which is some really nasty stuff typically used for sealing underground wiring.

I still have work to do. I need to get an isolator installed so that when I hook the inverter back up, which naturally connects D/C to A/C wiring sides that I don't get a small, but significant voltage differential. I need to add grounds for lightning protection to direct current safely to water and prevent static electric discharge that destroys modern electronic equipment. The best thing I've seen for this is a product called Strikeshield. I would want to not only ground the mast and use bonding to create a cone of protection, but also separately ground the A/C and D/C sides. Only recently did I replace some of my gauges with shunt-devices, with the best grabbing the electrical measurement with a loop that goes around the shunt to remotely sense it without impacting the electrical flow. Apparently, it's hard to find this device for both ammeters and volt meters for A/C and D/C systems.

Yep, I'm no electrical engineer, but can do basic math for amperage, voltage and wattage calculations. I'm the first to admit that I've only begun to look at monitoring controls and regulation systems, but I realize they are critical to developing a complete system. I think I can learn about them after studying the system and really was hoping to be pointed in the right direction. I've certainly received some invaluable guidance and information for items to research that I had not run across or properly considered. I'm perhaps not quite as clueless as I seem, but certainly not where I need to be to install a system. Of course, to be honest, I doubt most "professionals" that deal with home system know how to properly develop a system for a boat and let's just say that I've been less than impressed with "marine electrical professionals" that I've run across through the years. Many of them have even the basics wrong and that I can recognize this means it's pretty obvious.

Now, with all that said, I really don't have my feathers ruffled, but this is to prevent others from simply throwing in the towel and thinking that info here will not help me or others that read it. I can't be the only one on the planet to hook up multiple banks of batteries on a boat or use solar panels to charge them along with other charging sources. Understanding how to regulate charge, manage storage and isolate power is a start. To go further to understand how to prevent controllers from mistakenly sensing loads from other devices, such as wind generators or other controllers, and avoid charging errors because of how these devices auto-sense and are hooked together can't be rocket science. Besides, I studied under Dr. Sisler, who developed the first method NASA used for making rocket fuel and I've stayed at a Holiday Inn ...

[ChrisOlson]

Of course, to be honest, I doubt most "professionals" that deal with home system know how to properly develop a system for a boat and let's just say that I've been less than impressed with "marine electrical professionals" that I've run across through the years. Many of them have even the basics wrong and that I can recognize this means it's pretty obvious.

dennis, certainly no electrical contractor that does house wiring is going to wire a boat. But you're in an area where blue water cruisers should be pretty common. Having an experienced tech look over your boat so you get the battery banks right is pretty important. And go down to the marina and look for somebody that just sailed in from Mexico or something and ask them if you can see how their boat is set up for battery banks, etc..

Your pro that's going to do the installation is another person you can consult. Did you have a survey done on the boat when you bought her? Or have a copy of the most recent survey on her?

The bonding system in the boat is very critical. It's usually tied to the keel and evidence of problems will be indicated by finding a badly corroded connection where the bonding wire hooks to the keel. That's usually under the cabin sole if you pull it up. If you find a corroded connection there, the entire boat is suspect for stray currents and I wouldn't even take her out to sea without carefully inspecting things like the rudder post and bushing to see if they have been eroded by galvanic corrosion.

These are all the things that a marine expert inspecting your boat can tell you, as well as providing pointers and advice on the battery banks and electrical system. It really has nothing to do with you or I or what anybody else thinks about your plans. I know it is doable IF it is done right. That's why there is experts in the marine industry that specialize in this stuff. If you go to a marina where all they service is Sea Ray speedboats, you're not going to get the right advice. Ask around and it's not hard to find the ones that know what they're doing on blue water cruising yachts. That's where I would start. Then come back and tell us about the cool things you learned from having a surveyor look her over and make recommendations. You'll have a whole different outlook on it than you have now.

Those surveyors are more than happy to explain everything to you about what they find on your boat. I would expect around $2,000 for a survey on a 50 footer in the slip. If the surveyor takes her out to sea and does a full survey on the propulsion system with all the diagnostic equipment hooked up, it will probably run around $5,000. But it is some of the best money spent on a refit on an older boat.

[D_e_n_n_i_s]

Chris, I've been waiting for 5 1/2 months for that professional at the full-service marina to become available. He is well known and handles boats of all varieties with a full staff. He has the kind of reputation that is not only good, but widespread. When I E-Mailed North Sails for that quote recently, they knew him and I've had many other vendors in the marine business give me good reports on him as well. North Sails noted "he knows what he is doing" when I told them that I was going to consult with him. No, he recommended another sailmaker so it wasn't because he was in bed with them. That being said, he is no electrical engineer and given the evolution of auto-sensing technologies that can compete (MPPT controller for solar sensing wind generator load and vice versa, etc.) I wanted to gather more information to refresh my research on the subject.

Living on a dock with boaters of all kinds for the past 8-9 years, I've spoken to many sailors that have sailed for years in international waters and none of them had monitoring equipment, isolators or any sophistocated equipment. A single solar panel was on the high-tech end, but certainly no MPPT controllers or much else. The norm is a very low-tech system as I've gathered from far too many people that I've questioned about this and other sailing topics.

Naturally, I had a survey before buying my sailboat from a licensed company in California, where the boat resided before I purchased her. There were long, detailed lists, but electrical systems didn't make much note. The bonding is to the keel, which is yet another good reason to do lightning grounding with bonding to metal on deck because lightning is going to exit out of the hull without another lower resistance avenue to take.

I've taken enough measurements at many points in the boat to know that the A/C grounding could be a bit better, but the voltage variance is very slight. I naturally want variances as close to zero as possible, but it's not close to being alarming.

I guess putting together a system with 6-8 solar panels, 3-4 MPPT controllers, 6-8 AGM 8D batteries and 2 wind generators to power a sailboat is much more complicated than I suspected. I appreciate the tips on the isolating electronics and monitoring equipment as that was just the sort of thing I was hoping for when I originally posted. I still welcome any reference to similar equipment that can help to isolate components of a robust system, provide monitoring to gauge health or issues and any additional technology that would be useful to consider in such a system. Thanks for the help !!

[ChrisOlson]

Living on a dock with boaters of all kinds for the past 8-9 years, I've spoken to many sailors that have sailed for years in international waters and none of them had monitoring equipment, isolators or any sophistocated equipment. A single solar panel was on the high-tech end, but certainly no MPPT controllers or much else. The norm is a very low-tech system as I've gathered from far too many people that I've questioned about this and other sailing topics.

I would say only about 25-30% of cruisers have solar panels on their boats. A vast majority more use Ampair towed hydro generators than use solar. The solar panels do not stand up to the salt air and salt water long term and many have lost them at sea when a big 20 foot roller comes over the deck in a storm. You have to kind of take extreme care in the engineering of mounting solar panels on a sailing yacht. In a storm your cockpit drains can't keep up many times and we have a separate 500 gph bilge pump on the cockpit just to keep it above water in rough conditions, and keep sea water from going thru the washboards and down into the cabin. Anything mounted on the boat that re-directs water when it comes over the deck into the cockpit is bad. I've seen gas cans lashed to a board on the toerail and stanchions take a big roller that comes over the bow and rolls along the deck and hits those cans, directing 500 gallons of seawater into the cockpit in one shot. And as you're surfing down the next big wave at 18 kts you notice all the gas cans, the board and everything - gone - lost at sea. So having those panels mounted low is not a good idea. They won't last long in the first storm at sea.

The thing is a knockdown or broach. We wrecked one of our panels one day when we were pushing it pretty hard with the boat over-canvassed and my wife ran out of rudder and we broached. Suddenly the boat is laying on its side and my wife is standing on gunwhale hanging on the lifeline reading me the riot act because I wasn't fast enough on the mainsheet. One of our panels dug in and got bent and busted the glass on it. So they can get damaged.

The old mechanical isolators (Battery Selector Switch) has been used on sailing yachts for decades. More and more are going to electronic isolators and ACR's to protect expensive and sensitive electronic equipment onboard the boat these days. Having all your electronics running and then cranking the diesel or loading an inverter so you get voltage "sag" is devastating to things like chartplotters or radar equipment and linked autopilots. Your marine electrician you have in "que" will be able to fill you in on all the details, depending on how you want to fit the boat.

[D_e_n_n_i_s]

The sailors on my dock must be tough ole salts 'cause they don't use any generators for power ... maybe a little solar panel to trickle charge the batteries for the bilge pumps, but not much else. Actually, I could tell you tales as many were a rough lot.

Great idea for a bilge pump in the cockpit for storms !! I can't believe I've never heard that until now as it just makes good sense !! I've heard of the scuppers not keeping up, but how simple is it to add a bilge pump.

I was actually planning on mounting most panels on top of the radar arch, but I'll re-think the ones I was going to mount on the rails ... Good thoughts !!

Besides a knockdown ... and we won't even think about turtling or pitchpoling ... how about hail damage !! Nobody builds tough, aluminum covers for these things !! I was going to have some fabricated for this purpose.

The smaller electronic circuits these days are very efficient, but very sensitive to static discharge or electrical spikes and sags as the downside. I remember when we used to solder to fix computers ... I prefer manual switches, which I'll start calling mechanical isolators now ... lol as there is no question about who screwed up by opening the electronic floodgates ... but the promise of more efficient charging sings the siren's call and I'm headed to the rocks against my control ... Help me, please !!

[ChrisOlson]

I guess putting together a system with 6-8 solar panels, 3-4 MPPT controllers, 6-8 AGM 8D batteries and 2 wind generators to power a sailboat is much more complicated than I suspected.

Dennis, you got too many topics in one post

I know you said you got wind turbines. But frankly, wind turbines on sailing yachts, unless you can position the turbine to catch the high speed laminar air flowing between the genoa and the main, don't make much power. And they're noisy. We spend 95% of our time in the cockpit, relaxing while the windvane steers the boat. My wife is usually kicked back sunning in her bikini and reading on her Kindle and I like to fish and relax with a cold one. I don't think I could stand the noise from a wind turbine after about the first day destroying my peace and quiet. I'd probably go below deck and grab the 12 gauge and end it.

6-8 solar panels - OMG. Two or three I can see and you can still live pretty Big on the hook on 2 or 3. With 6-8 of 'em you must plan on hosting big parties on your boat with flashing lights and disco balls when you're on the hook? I don't recall that I've ever seen that many panels on a sailing yacht, but maybe we don't hang out with the right people to see something like that.

At sea we tow our dinghy on the windward side of the boat when she's heeled and tow the Ampair on the lee side. We've never had them get tangled up. But I think you'll find a Ampair makes more power than extra solar panels because it works 24 hours a day and has no shading issues. Solar panels are primarily more useful on the hook, and even then when the boat swings on the hook they can get shaded by the mast and boom with the main'sl cover on. So I dunno about all this. You're definitely exploring options I've never seen before

[D_e_n_n_i_s]

LMAO ... Yep too many topics, too many components, too many headaches ... Time for aspirin !!

The D400's are reported to be very quiet. I've heard plenty of different models and some were quite obnoxious while some weren't too bad, but nobody ever came to the dock with a D400 so I'll keep the shotgun handy.

You don't throw disco parties all weekend too ??? You know, it's so pretty when the local transformers start to blow !!!

Towing a dinghy ... **shivers** I guess you mean when the seas are calm and large waves aren't taking turns throwing it at you on deck Better than hanging it on davits, I suppose. I use a Portabote and fold it up like a surfboard to keep it on deck. First time I got in it in the water I thought ...what have I bought ?? Then, I took it for a spin and realized that flexiblity actually made for a comfortable ride and they are VERY stable. Got to replace those cheap, plastic, BLACK seats though ... Ouch !!!

Hmmm, thanks for the tip on Ampair ... and for the laughs !!

[ChrisOlson]

Towing a dinghy ... **shivers** I guess you mean when the seas are calm and large waves aren't taking turns throwing it at you on deck

When it gets rough we bring it in and lash it to the aft deck. Otherwise, just about everybody tows their dinghies because folks like the sun deck to be open without a dinghy in the way. We got a Walker Bay hard dinghy and we got a little Honda outboard for it that we stow on the stern rails when under way.

With your solar panels, if you plan on sailing to Europe on the North Atlantic, North Sea, Med, etc., your solar panels aren't going to work all that great. In the Caribbean or Indian Ocean they'll work fine. But under sail with the shading and constant pitching and rolling in 3-5 foot seas we only get about 2-2.5 kWh/day from them. On the hook they'll make 3.5-3.8 kWh/day. We actually use less power on the hook than we do at sea because we got less stuff going in the boat. When we get an anchorage we tend to spend quite a bit of time on dry land and dine at fancy restaurants and stuff, and go exploring. The only time we're on the boat is at night to sleep. And in crowded Caribbean anchorages invariably some a$$hole will drop hook right next to you so close that when their boat swings on the hook it fouls your anchor rode. And then the next thing you know they got their diesel generator going so they can run their A/C on the boat. This another time I am very close to going below deck and getting the 12 gauge. So we sleep in a hotel on land instead of in the boat.

Overall, on the hook is when the batteries get caught up. At sea they're always in a state of partial charge and if things get too bad we just run the diesel and charge them up.

Personally, for a low latitude cruiser I think solar panels pay off. If you plan on sailing very much at higher latitudes I'd just spend the money on a 165A alternator and diesel fuel and forget all the extra panels and controllers, etc.. For "renewable" onboard power, the Ampair towed hydro turbine will give you a constant 80-100 watts of power around the clock. It pretty much equals our solar panels for energy production in a much simpler system. The Ampair's ideal tow speed is 7-8 kts. Faster than that it "skips" on the surface and that limits its power output. And we winch it in when it's rough so we don't lose it at sea. But of everything on the boat, it is probably the most reliable "renewable" source of power and its drag is pretty minimal and only slows the boat down maybe a 1/4 knot.

[D_e_n_n_i_s]

I never gave the specifics of the regulating hardware used with the DuoGen D400 Industrial wind generators, but here is a link that explains what the U.S. dealer sells with these units:

http://www.flexcharge.com/NCHC-High-Capacity-controller.html

Larry Janke uses the NCHC 60 with isolating relays. The regulator controls two large contactors; one is connected to the batteries and the other to the diversion load. The reason for this is to isolate the wind generator from other charging sources, particularly an AC powered charger and/or alternator. Without the isolation, the charger or alternator would always be "seeing" the 600 watt diversion load and try to "charge" it.

[ChrisOlson]

I never gave the specifics of the regulating hardware used with the DuoGen D400 Industrial wind generators, but here is a link that explains what the U.S. dealer sells with these units:

Dennis, I'm afraid I am not familiar with those. The main ones I have seen on sailboats is either the SWWP "Air" series or the European Ampair turbines. I have always been a bit dubious of using wind turbines on yachts because the placement of the turbine seems to be less than ideal many times. The genoa straightens and smooths the air flowing over the airfoil (convex) side of the main so the main makes more power. If you can position your wind turbine so it is in the laminar airflow coming off the leech of the main at the point where the roach is biggest on the sail cut, then I have heard reports of them working very well. However, most of your ocean sailing is on a reach and not close hauled, so that is very hard to do.

Just because you have wind on a sailing yacht doesn't mean it's clean and laminar wind that will make a turbine feasible. And obviously on a run, the wind turbine is not going to work very well at all.

If you haven't yet bought these units I think I would tend to maybe buy one and see how it works before spending money on another one.

[D_e_n_n_i_s]

Chris - Outstanding points about wind turbulence and gen placement !! We had a doctor (didn't work for our hospital, but known by folks here) that set sail to beat the record for circumnavigating North to South - What's the point? Anywho, he found out that apparent wind had dropped his expected output too low to run everything and I don't think he added any\sufficient solar power ... even on a 1.5 million dollar sailboat that he had designed ... Yep, the latter really makes me shiver ... His boat started coming apart with the chance of the mast even coming down ... new boat ... 1.5 million ... stick with someone known for making boats like Bill Tripp nuff said ...

I'm actually in the process of buying a Wells Marine radar arch, which Larry Janke recommended to me since they do a lot of D400 mounts ...

http://wellsmarine.com/

I'm going to mount a D400 on each side of the arch and am going to see how many solar panels I can fit on it ...

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Electrical Stuff:

I saw where Mike had posted an article on diodes, noting that any quality MPPT controller should have a diode. This should serve to isolate the pair of solar panels hooked in series to the MPPT controller, right? Yep, hit me with those mathematical equations I need to solve to confirm this depending on the characteristics of the system and how it's hooked up ... I don't mind

Shouldn't I also use a diversion load for safety for each solar panel component set, i.e. 2 solar panels in series to MPPT controller with diversion load and connection to pair of 8D AGM batteries? Perhaps someone could offer a crude diagram of how that wiring should be done ... stick figures are optional ...

I'm guessing a battery monitor that could hook to 4 banks max of batteries would be a decent monitoring system. I could always break out a hand meter if I suspect two batteries in a given bank aren't staying at a similar state of charge or a battery is otherwise dying.

I'll also need to figure out how to wire in a true sine wave inverter to think about using an A/C device or two ... I do have D/C chargers for the laptops, but George Foreman might be useful other than just as a lunch hook for my dinghy ... Hec, truth be told I'll probably just use Lehman's solar oven, but it's nice to dream ... I have gone D/C for most stuff, even for hair blowers (clearly not needed for a guy cruising) & a D/C device for cooking - Hey, have you seen those 12-volt microwaves ... It only takes a 5 ft diameter copper wire to hook 'em into the board ... Might be useful for poppin' transformers before I set sail ... Could be fun !! Kiddin' Just Kiddin' Well ...

[Mike90250]

Electrical Stuff:

I saw where Mike had posted an article on diodes, noting that any quality MPPT controller should have a diode. This should serve to isolate the pair of solar panels hooked in series to the MPPT controller, right? Yep, hit me with those mathematical equations I need to solve to confirm this depending on the characteristics of the system and how it's hooked up ... I don't mind

Shouldn't I also use a diversion load for safety for each solar panel component set, i.e. 2 solar panels in series to MPPT controller with diversion load and connection to pair of 8D AGM batteries? Perhaps someone could offer a crude diagram of how that wiring should be done ... stick figures are optional ...
....

All MPPT controllers have the diode function integrated inside them, you don't need any more diodes, anywhere.
Solar Panels do not need "dump loads"

Dump loads are needed for generators that cannot be "unloaded" and allow to free spin. A wind generator will self-destruct from overspeed, if unloaded and in moderate wind. Some wind generators can be "shorted" with a special switch, and the load of the short, will stall the rotation, till the tower/mount breaks. Some have a motorcycle disc brake that locks the rotor in high winds.