Gosh, that sounds complicated, though. The Battery Selector Switch in our boat never turns the power off to the panel unless it is in the OFF position. The solar controller feeds the panel bus. So we can switch it from Bank 1 to Bank 2 to BOTH on the fly and it never breaks power to the panel bus. The MidNite KID simply "sees" the different bank voltage if I switch it from like 1 to 2 or BOTH and within seconds adjusts itself.
Edit:
Oh, and one other little tidbit - if we turn the Battery Selector to the OFF position and the MidNite KID is still operating. It will simply go to Absorb V on the DC output and powers itself from the solar panels. It will actually operate the lights, fans, you name it in the boat up to the amount of power the solar panels are putting out without even being connected to the battery banks.
Second edit:
The Classic 150 does the same thing.
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The computer in the MPPT runs off the battery voltage. When you switch it, one of 2 things happens - the controller has no place to push power to, and it's output (battery terminal) goes sky high till it hits a safety shut off, or frys. Either way, the CPU has crashed, and will have to reboot anytime the battery is switched. The proper way is to disconnect solar, then battery, switch things around, and connect battery first, after controller has done self test and is running, then switch PV back on.
You are going to need the high voltage DC breakers from Midnight Solar. And you may not find a marine version of them. If you run 2 panels in series, you could be switching 80V or more, depending on the brand/version of panel.
And you will need to label all this stuff. Maybe use a patch panel (if there is a marine version) to cover Solar A to MPPT B to Battery C (MPPT A is dead, Solar B ate a seagull @ 30 kt, Battery A is full)Leave a comment:
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Mike - Thanks for the feedback !! Got an electronic break on the wind gens to stop spin and the Industrial units that I have actually have an internal sensor that switches the stator wiring from a star to a delta configuration in response to rising internal temperatures. I doubt I'll need it, but just in case I'm not onboard when a really, really nasty storm rolls through ...
If the delta configuration still enables heat to build, there is a thermal cut-out sensor and switch causing the turbine to become an open circuit and no current flows. Once the alternator cools, the turbine will automatically re-connect.
Even though the sun is still on the solar panels, I guess they are disconnected through the MPPT controller perhaps based on voltage to prevent overcharging ??? With no moving parts I suppose the idea is that it's not going to become damaged by simply "disconnecting" it from the circuit. No free-spinning damage possible ...
Chris - Apparently these arches can carry quite a bit of weight. Gets the panels up out of the wash as well. Wow, you sure put yours to the test and it came out on top ... Nice !!! Very good to hear, thanks !! I was a bit concerned with putting weight up that high, but they really are designed for it. Thanks again !!Leave a comment:
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We had a custom arch built by Kato Marine and we have been very happy with it too. It has survived two knockdowns in 45-60 kt winds with heavy seas, and broaching the boat once, without failure. We have about 200-250 lbs of gear on it. So I think it is pretty heavy duty.Leave a comment:
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All MPPT controllers have the diode function integrated inside them, you don't need any more diodes, anywhere.Electrical Stuff:
I saw where Mike had posted an article on diodes, noting that any quality MPPT controller should have a diode. This should serve to isolate the pair of solar panels hooked in series to the MPPT controller, right? Yep, hit me with those mathematical equations I need to solve to confirm this depending on the characteristics of the system and how it's hooked up ... I don't mind
Shouldn't I also use a diversion load for safety for each solar panel component set, i.e. 2 solar panels in series to MPPT controller with diversion load and connection to pair of 8D AGM batteries? Perhaps someone could offer a crude diagram of how that wiring should be done ... stick figures are optional ...
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Solar Panels do not need "dump loads"
Dump loads are needed for generators that cannot be "unloaded" and allow to free spin. A wind generator will self-destruct from overspeed, if unloaded and in moderate wind. Some wind generators can be "shorted" with a special switch, and the load of the short, will stall the rotation, till the tower/mount breaks. Some have a motorcycle disc brake that locks the rotor in high winds.Leave a comment:
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Chris - Outstanding points about wind turbulence and gen placement !! We had a doctor (didn't work for our hospital, but known by folks here) that set sail to beat the record for circumnavigating North to South - What's the point? Anywho, he found out that apparent wind had dropped his expected output too low to run everything and I don't think he added any\sufficient solar power ... even on a 1.5 million dollar sailboat that he had designed ... Yep, the latter really makes me shiver ... His boat started coming apart with the chance of the mast even coming down ... new boat ... 1.5 million ... stick with someone known for making boats like Bill Tripp
nuff said ...
I'm actually in the process of buying a Wells Marine radar arch, which Larry Janke recommended to me since they do a lot of D400 mounts ...
I'm going to mount a D400 on each side of the arch and am going to see how many solar panels I can fit on it ...
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Electrical Stuff:
I saw where Mike had posted an article on diodes, noting that any quality MPPT controller should have a diode. This should serve to isolate the pair of solar panels hooked in series to the MPPT controller, right? Yep, hit me with those mathematical equations I need to solve to confirm this depending on the characteristics of the system and how it's hooked up ... I don't mind
Shouldn't I also use a diversion load for safety for each solar panel component set, i.e. 2 solar panels in series to MPPT controller with diversion load and connection to pair of 8D AGM batteries? Perhaps someone could offer a crude diagram of how that wiring should be done ... stick figures are optional ...
I'm guessing a battery monitor that could hook to 4 banks max of batteries would be a decent monitoring system. I could always break out a hand meter if I suspect two batteries in a given bank aren't staying at a similar state of charge or a battery is otherwise dying.
I'll also need to figure out how to wire in a true sine wave inverter to think about using an A/C device or two ... I do have D/C chargers for the laptops, but George Foreman might be useful other than just as a lunch hook for my dinghy ... Hec, truth be told I'll probably just use Lehman's solar oven, but it's nice to dream ... I have gone D/C for most stuff, even for hair blowers (clearly not needed for a guy cruising) & a D/C device for cooking - Hey, have you seen those 12-volt microwaves ... It only takes a 5 ft diameter copper wire to hook 'em into the board ... Might be useful for poppin' transformers before I set sail ... Could be fun !! Kiddin' Just Kiddin' Well ...Leave a comment:
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Dennis, I'm afraid I am not familiar with those. The main ones I have seen on sailboats is either the SWWP "Air" series or the European Ampair turbines. I have always been a bit dubious of using wind turbines on yachts because the placement of the turbine seems to be less than ideal many times. The genoa straightens and smooths the air flowing over the airfoil (convex) side of the main so the main makes more power. If you can position your wind turbine so it is in the laminar airflow coming off the leech of the main at the point where the roach is biggest on the sail cut, then I have heard reports of them working very well. However, most of your ocean sailing is on a reach and not close hauled, so that is very hard to do.
Just because you have wind on a sailing yacht doesn't mean it's clean and laminar wind that will make a turbine feasible. And obviously on a run, the wind turbine is not going to work very well at all.
If you haven't yet bought these units I think I would tend to maybe buy one and see how it works before spending money on another one.Leave a comment:
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I never gave the specifics of the regulating hardware used with the DuoGen D400 Industrial wind generators, but here is a link that explains what the U.S. dealer sells with these units:
Larry Janke uses the NCHC 60 with isolating relays. The regulator controls two large contactors; one is connected to the batteries and the other to the diversion load. The reason for this is to isolate the wind generator from other charging sources, particularly an AC powered charger and/or alternator. Without the isolation, the charger or alternator would always be "seeing" the 600 watt diversion load and try to "charge" it.Leave a comment:
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When it gets rough we bring it in and lash it to the aft deck. Otherwise, just about everybody tows their dinghies because folks like the sun deck to be open without a dinghy in the way. We got a Walker Bay hard dinghy and we got a little Honda outboard for it that we stow on the stern rails when under way.
With your solar panels, if you plan on sailing to Europe on the North Atlantic, North Sea, Med, etc., your solar panels aren't going to work all that great. In the Caribbean or Indian Ocean they'll work fine. But under sail with the shading and constant pitching and rolling in 3-5 foot seas we only get about 2-2.5 kWh/day from them. On the hook they'll make 3.5-3.8 kWh/day. We actually use less power on the hook than we do at sea because we got less stuff going in the boat. When we get an anchorage we tend to spend quite a bit of time on dry land and dine at fancy restaurants and stuff, and go exploring. The only time we're on the boat is at night to sleep. And in crowded Caribbean anchorages invariably some a$$hole will drop hook right next to you so close that when their boat swings on the hook it fouls your anchor rode. And then the next thing you know they got their diesel generator going so they can run their A/C on the boat. This another time I am very close to going below deck and getting the 12 gauge. So we sleep in a hotel on land instead of in the boat.
Overall, on the hook is when the batteries get caught up. At sea they're always in a state of partial charge and if things get too bad we just run the diesel and charge them up.
Personally, for a low latitude cruiser I think solar panels pay off. If you plan on sailing very much at higher latitudes I'd just spend the money on a 165A alternator and diesel fuel and forget all the extra panels and controllers, etc.. For "renewable" onboard power, the Ampair towed hydro turbine will give you a constant 80-100 watts of power around the clock. It pretty much equals our solar panels for energy production in a much simpler system. The Ampair's ideal tow speed is 7-8 kts. Faster than that it "skips" on the surface and that limits its power output. And we winch it in when it's rough so we don't lose it at sea. But of everything on the boat, it is probably the most reliable "renewable" source of power and its drag is pretty minimal and only slows the boat down maybe a 1/4 knot.Leave a comment:
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LMAO ... Yep too many topics, too many components, too many headaches ... Time for aspirin !!
The D400's are reported to be very quiet. I've heard plenty of different models and some were quite obnoxious while some weren't too bad, but nobody ever came to the dock with a D400 so I'll keep the shotgun handy.
You don't throw disco parties all weekend too ??? You know, it's so pretty when the local transformers start to blow !!!
Towing a dinghy ... **shivers** I guess you mean when the seas are calm and large waves aren't taking turns throwing it at you on deck
Better than hanging it on davits, I suppose. I use a Portabote and fold it up like a surfboard to keep it on deck. First time I got in it in the water I thought ...what have I bought ?? Then, I took it for a spin and realized that flexiblity actually made for a comfortable ride and they are VERY stable. Got to replace those cheap, plastic, BLACK seats though ... Ouch !!!
Hmmm, thanks for the tip on Ampair ... and for the laughs !!Leave a comment:
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Dennis, you got too many topics in one post
I know you said you got wind turbines. But frankly, wind turbines on sailing yachts, unless you can position the turbine to catch the high speed laminar air flowing between the genoa and the main, don't make much power. And they're noisy. We spend 95% of our time in the cockpit, relaxing while the windvane steers the boat. My wife is usually kicked back sunning in her bikini and reading on her Kindle and I like to fish and relax with a cold one. I don't think I could stand the noise from a wind turbine after about the first day destroying my peace and quiet. I'd probably go below deck and grab the 12 gauge and end it.
6-8 solar panels - OMG. Two or three I can see and you can still live pretty Big on the hook on 2 or 3. With 6-8 of 'em you must plan on hosting big parties on your boat with flashing lights and disco balls when you're on the hook? I don't recall that I've ever seen that many panels on a sailing yacht, but maybe we don't hang out with the right people to see something like that.
At sea we tow our dinghy on the windward side of the boat when she's heeled and tow the Ampair on the lee side. We've never had them get tangled up. But I think you'll find a Ampair makes more power than extra solar panels because it works 24 hours a day and has no shading issues. Solar panels are primarily more useful on the hook, and even then when the boat swings on the hook they can get shaded by the mast and boom with the main'sl cover on. So I dunno about all this. You're definitely exploring options I've never seen before
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The sailors on my dock must be tough ole salts 'cause they don't use any generators for power ... maybe a little solar panel to trickle charge the batteries for the bilge pumps, but not much else. Actually, I could tell you tales as many were a rough lot.
Great idea for a bilge pump in the cockpit for storms !! I can't believe I've never heard that until now as it just makes good sense !! I've heard of the scuppers not keeping up, but how simple is it to add a bilge pump.
I was actually planning on mounting most panels on top of the radar arch, but I'll re-think the ones I was going to mount on the rails ... Good thoughts !!
Besides a knockdown ... and we won't even think about turtling or pitchpoling ... how about hail damage !! Nobody builds tough, aluminum covers for these things !! I was going to have some fabricated for this purpose.
The smaller electronic circuits these days are very efficient, but very sensitive to static discharge or electrical spikes and sags as the downside. I remember when we used to solder to fix computers ... I prefer manual switches, which I'll start calling mechanical isolators now ... lol as there is no question about who screwed up by opening the electronic floodgates ... but the promise of more efficient charging sings the siren's call and I'm headed to the rocks against my control ... Help me, please !!Leave a comment:
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I would say only about 25-30% of cruisers have solar panels on their boats. A vast majority more use Ampair towed hydro generators than use solar. The solar panels do not stand up to the salt air and salt water long term and many have lost them at sea when a big 20 foot roller comes over the deck in a storm. You have to kind of take extreme care in the engineering of mounting solar panels on a sailing yacht. In a storm your cockpit drains can't keep up many times and we have a separate 500 gph bilge pump on the cockpit just to keep it above water in rough conditions, and keep sea water from going thru the washboards and down into the cabin. Anything mounted on the boat that re-directs water when it comes over the deck into the cockpit is bad. I've seen gas cans lashed to a board on the toerail and stanchions take a big roller that comes over the bow and rolls along the deck and hits those cans, directing 500 gallons of seawater into the cockpit in one shot. And as you're surfing down the next big wave at 18 kts you notice all the gas cans, the board and everything - gone - lost at sea. So having those panels mounted low is not a good idea. They won't last long in the first storm at sea.
The thing is a knockdown or broach. We wrecked one of our panels one day when we were pushing it pretty hard with the boat over-canvassed and my wife ran out of rudder and we broached. Suddenly the boat is laying on its side and my wife is standing on gunwhale hanging on the lifeline reading me the riot act because I wasn't fast enough on the mainsheet. One of our panels dug in and got bent and busted the glass on it. So they can get damaged.
The old mechanical isolators (Battery Selector Switch) has been used on sailing yachts for decades. More and more are going to electronic isolators and ACR's to protect expensive and sensitive electronic equipment onboard the boat these days. Having all your electronics running and then cranking the diesel or loading an inverter so you get voltage "sag" is devastating to things like chartplotters or radar equipment and linked autopilots. Your marine electrician you have in "que" will be able to fill you in on all the details, depending on how you want to fit the boat.Leave a comment:
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Chris, I've been waiting for 5 1/2 months for that professional at the full-service marina to become available. He is well known and handles boats of all varieties with a full staff. He has the kind of reputation that is not only good, but widespread. When I E-Mailed North Sails for that quote recently, they knew him and I've had many other vendors in the marine business give me good reports on him as well. North Sails noted "he knows what he is doing" when I told them that I was going to consult with him. No, he recommended another sailmaker so it wasn't because he was in bed with them. That being said, he is no electrical engineer and given the evolution of auto-sensing technologies that can compete (MPPT controller for solar sensing wind generator load and vice versa, etc.) I wanted to gather more information to refresh my research on the subject.
Living on a dock with boaters of all kinds for the past 8-9 years, I've spoken to many sailors that have sailed for years in international waters and none of them had monitoring equipment, isolators or any sophistocated equipment. A single solar panel was on the high-tech end, but certainly no MPPT controllers or much else. The norm is a very low-tech system as I've gathered from far too many people that I've questioned about this and other sailing topics.
Naturally, I had a survey before buying my sailboat from a licensed company in California, where the boat resided before I purchased her. There were long, detailed lists, but electrical systems didn't make much note. The bonding is to the keel, which is yet another good reason to do lightning grounding with bonding to metal on deck because lightning is going to exit out of the hull without another lower resistance avenue to take.
I've taken enough measurements at many points in the boat to know that the A/C grounding could be a bit better, but the voltage variance is very slight. I naturally want variances as close to zero as possible, but it's not close to being alarming.
I guess putting together a system with 6-8 solar panels, 3-4 MPPT controllers, 6-8 AGM 8D batteries and 2 wind generators to power a sailboat is much more complicated than I suspected. I appreciate the tips on the isolating electronics and monitoring equipment as that was just the sort of thing I was hoping for when I originally posted. I still welcome any reference to similar equipment that can help to isolate components of a robust system, provide monitoring to gauge health or issues and any additional technology that would be useful to consider in such a system. Thanks for the help !!Leave a comment:
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