Off Grid Solar Shed - Choosing Batteries - First Post and PV Project

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  • PNjunction
    Solar Fanatic
    • Jul 2012
    • 2179

    #16
    You are on-track you are with your thinking - especially since you are taking winter-hours of solar-insolation into account, and not just sunrise-sunset hours.

    I guess I better make sure I give it a few days to charge after a good hard Saturday of use.
    You may not need more than two days at this point in winter. Ideally, one strives to put back 110 to maybe 120% of what you took out to get a full charge because charging isn't perfectly efficient.

    For a backup, perhaps just a 10amp AC charger will do considering you are using a 104 ah batttery. That's just about right at C/10 current. The window is C/12 to C/8 for FLA, so you have some wiggle room. Choose wisely as some automotive type chargers will do EQ and other optimization tricks behind your back that you may want to have more control over. Essentially, if they don't publish the voltage specs, or have been verified by another, be cautious.

    So what I am thinking is that if this shed starts getting regular use, I will be needing to purchase another 100w panel to keep my battery from taking a crap on me in 6 months.
    Yes! However, in summer you will most likely make it with longer solar insolation hours. But most design for winter unless it is just a summer project.

    So yes, a 200 watt system driving a 104ah battery would do fine as that is in the C/12 to C/8 window, and even in winter, you'll have enough hours to do the job *as it stands now*. Take that 104ah battery down to 50% DOD, with only two hours of winter insolation even at 200 watts, you are back to square one.

    The 18v I used was for a standard "battery" panel, and not one that is a higher voltage "GTI" grid tie panel. The typical Open-Circuit-Voltage OCV of a battery panel is anywhere from 17 to 21 volts or so. So it was easy to calculate the BEST, but not real world output considering losses, amperage.

    In the solar game, unless you are doing space-orbit calculations, round down. Ie, when we calculate a 100 watt panel being able to turn out 5.555 A, just round down to 5 even to give you some headroom.

    Typically a pwm charge controller and less than perfect conditions means that you are looking at 75% rated efficiency of the system as a whole. MPPT can go higher under certain conditions and many threads to explore on that. So now, one also wants to account for inefficiencies.

    Basically your choice of another panel would be just fine for a starter setup, the loads you use, the capacity and chemistry of your battery, and the solar-insolation you are facing in the winter. Solar is a LOT more fun when you do the math rather than winging it! Good to see you calculating what you need...

    Comment

    • unt0uchable
      Member
      • Oct 2013
      • 35

      #17
      Well, I thought I would post an update. Finally got the inside finished and the shelf up for the solar equipment inside.

      Here it is. One plug for the lights, one for the wall sockets.


      Closeup. Charge controller to be replaced. Borrowing the HF stuff for now. Hey, it works.


      Lights on nice and bright. Can't tell a difference from the extension cord...




      Each wall and the outlets available. More than likely will be used to charge the lithium Ryobi and the DeWalt 18v batteries for the most part...




      The finished product for the charging setup will include a digital volt/amp meter that I am thinking about wiring in to be able to switch from incoming voltage/amperage to outgoing voltage/amperage so I can see what's coming in and what I'm currently using. Not sure if that will work or if it will blow things up, but I'm going to read up on it. Any thoughts on doing this?

      With the current charge controller, we had the 3 lights on for a solid hour at dusk when the panels were hardly charging (though, still seeing voltage) and the controller started out reading 12.9 before turning any lights on. By the time we shut down for the evening, it read 11.9. But as soon as I shut the lights off it jumps to 12.1-12.2. What is this telling me? Anything really without knowing my amperage I was drawing?

      Also wondering, will the inverter be alright hanging that way? The cooling fan is pointing up, but I've yet to see/hear it kick on anytime other than start-up for about 3 seconds. This mounting position works well since the inverter switch is within reach of anyone walking in. Open the doors, flip on the inverter, flip the light switch next to the door, and let there be light!

      Anyway, that's what I have for now. Comments are welcome. Thanks for the informative posts thus far guys! I'm having a lot of fun with this setup and reading this forum is invaluable.

      Comment

      • Mike90250
        Moderator
        • May 2009
        • 16020

        #18
        As long as the inverter cooling air exhausts uphill (enhancing the chimney effect of hot air rising) it should be OK. (properly designed fans, should be intake fans at the bottom, with cool air flowing over the fan, not like many inverters with exhaust fans on top, all sorts of toasty)

        But, I sort of think that clip on leads to the battery are bad.
        Having the battery up so high leads to :
        a) running warmer and dieing sooner
        b) hard to check and add water monthly
        c) fuses on the DC side ?

        Is the inverter sine wave or modified square ? Most modified waveshape inverters don't work well wired up as "house wire" with a bonded neutral to ground. If you ever get something that bridges the neutral to ground, the magic smoke is released and you get to buy a new inverter.

        If you are planning on replacing the inverter anyway, look for a model that can sense an applied load, and automatically turn itself on. It may take 5 seconds to respond to a light switch coming on, they only look for loads at intervals, not continuously.
        Last edited by Mike90250; 10-20-2013, 11:50 PM.
        Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
        || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
        || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

        solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
        gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

        Comment

        • unt0uchable
          Member
          • Oct 2013
          • 35

          #19
          Yeah, I knew I was going to get some heat from some people about the clip on leads. They are temporary. My battery has a threaded post and came with a couple of hex head nuts. It's just a matter of my getting my wire cutters/strippers out and crimping on an eye-hole onto them. Since my charge controller is even more temporary, those clip on leads will be gone and the new controller will have homemade wiring also with eye-hole connectors.

          I can't find anything stating exactly if it's pure sine or modified but one of the Amazon reviews is stating that it's modified. I will have to check the paperwork I have on it when I get home. That would be nice if I could get one that recognizes a load so it will flip on automatically. For now, it's a two step process. I might check to see what the inverter pulls when powered on, but with no load.

          Fuses on the DC side? There is a fuse on the inverter between the battery connection on the back side (top in the photo). I forget what amp fuse it is...

          Regarding the battery being up so high, I don't see it being a big deal to check/add water. I have an 8ft step ladder that gets me right up there. Easy peasy. It's out of the way, and I can't hit my head on the shelf. This shed is 12x12, but it's going to be getting filled up quick and I need to make sure I utilize every inch that I can. As far as it dying sooner due to heat, etc. I'll see how the heat is next spring/summer. Our high temps this week are in the low 50's, and it's not looking up until...March or April? So I'll check on that once we get our temps back.


          Edit: Also wanted to add that I was doing some math this morning about my "usage" just going on what we did last night. We ran 3 lights at 64w each for 1 hour. Here is what I came up with:

          64w * 3 = 192w

          192w / 12v = 16a per hour (correct?)

          So, with a 104aH battery, using 16a/h gives a discharge rate of about 6 hours (rounded down). Does this put me at a C6 on the Peukert Law?

          The current setup is not recharging at a significant rate to make up this difference so I'm really glad I have the 100w panel coming with an MPPT controller.

          Can anyone shed some light on my idea for the digital volt/amp gauge?

          Comment

          • FloridaSun
            Solar Fanatic
            • Dec 2012
            • 634

            #20
            Originally posted by unt0uchable
            Can anyone shed some light on my idea for the digital volt/amp gauge?
            Check out the Turnigy power analyzer. Cheapest place I've found them are at hobbyking,
            Hobbyking - the world's No1 Online Hobby Store. We stock a huge selection of RC products from Planes right through to Drones and all accessories. Visit Us Today.

            Comment

            • Mike90250
              Moderator
              • May 2009
              • 16020

              #21
              Originally posted by unt0uchable
              ...... Can anyone shed some light on my idea for the digital volt/amp gauge?
              Digital volt meters are all over the place. Amp meters need to have a shunt installed, and then they monitor the voltage drop across the shunt. (DC clip on meters are fairly expensive)
              Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
              || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
              || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

              solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
              gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

              Comment

              • unt0uchable
                Member
                • Oct 2013
                • 35

                #22
                That's pretty awesome. I think I'll have to get me one of those. Beat's what I already ordered by a mile and only costs $10 more...

                Thanks!

                Comment

                • thastinger
                  Solar Fanatic
                  • Oct 2012
                  • 804

                  #23
                  Originally posted by unt0uchable
                  Well, I thought I would post an update. Finally got the inside finished and the shelf up for the solar equipment inside.

                  Here it is. One plug for the lights, one for the wall sockets.


                  Closeup. Charge controller to be replaced. Borrowing the HF stuff for now. Hey, it works.


                  Lights on nice and bright. Can't tell a difference from the extension cord...




                  Each wall and the outlets available. More than likely will be used to charge the lithium Ryobi and the DeWalt 18v batteries for the most part...




                  The finished product for the charging setup will include a digital volt/amp meter that I am thinking about wiring in to be able to switch from incoming voltage/amperage to outgoing voltage/amperage so I can see what's coming in and what I'm currently using. Not sure if that will work or if it will blow things up, but I'm going to read up on it. Any thoughts on doing this?

                  With the current charge controller, we had the 3 lights on for a solid hour at dusk when the panels were hardly charging (though, still seeing voltage) and the controller started out reading 12.9 before turning any lights on. By the time we shut down for the evening, it read 11.9. But as soon as I shut the lights off it jumps to 12.1-12.2. What is this telling me? Anything really without knowing my amperage I was drawing?

                  Also wondering, will the inverter be alright hanging that way? The cooling fan is pointing up, but I've yet to see/hear it kick on anytime other than start-up for about 3 seconds. This mounting position works well since the inverter switch is within reach of anyone walking in. Open the doors, flip on the inverter, flip the light switch next to the door, and let there be light!

                  Anyway, that's what I have for now. Comments are welcome. Thanks for the informative posts thus far guys! I'm having a lot of fun with this setup and reading this forum is invaluable.
                  I don't see any grounding, fusing or disconnects. Do you plan to install any of those safety features?
                  1150W, Midnite Classic 200, Cotek PSW, 8 T-605s

                  Comment

                  • unt0uchable
                    Member
                    • Oct 2013
                    • 35

                    #24
                    Originally posted by thastinger
                    I don't see any grounding, fusing or disconnects. Do you plan to install any of those safety features?

                    I'd like to. Could you give some recommendations on how/where to go about implementing some of these?

                    Comment

                    • unt0uchable
                      Member
                      • Oct 2013
                      • 35

                      #25
                      I've been out in the shed for the last few evenings. It's too bad there hasn't been much sun light so I'm likely deficit charging over the last 3-4 days. It's sunny out right now so I'm hoping it sticks around for the afternoon.

                      Finally getting shelves up and moving stuff in. It's getting chilly but I plan to be building a solar air screen collector to pipe into the window and hopefully keep the temps up a little in there. That project is posted in the Solar Thermal section here on the forums.

                      I'll be sure to post up when I get my new stuff installed. Should be here before the weeks out.

                      Comment

                      • russ
                        Solar Fanatic
                        • Jul 2009
                        • 10360

                        #26
                        Look at http://www.builditsolar.com/
                        [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

                        Comment

                        • unt0uchable
                          Member
                          • Oct 2013
                          • 35

                          #27
                          Thanks! That helped.

                          On another note, while poking around on eBay and the likes, I found that there is a T8 tube LED bulb to replace the fluorescent lights and the LED's range from 15-20w instead of 32w each from the regular T8 bulbs. I might look into getting these when I burn through the T8 lights that we already bought. It requires removing the ballast and starter form the setup but I don't see that as a big deal. Sure would help cut down on wH usage in there with the lights on. 64 * 3 = 192w per hour for the fluorescent, 40 * 3 = 120w for the LED tubes. I've got a feeling the technology is rather young still since the light tubes aren't very cheap either.

                          Comment

                          • SunEagle
                            Super Moderator
                            • Oct 2012
                            • 15166

                            #28
                            Originally posted by unt0uchable
                            Thanks! That helped.

                            On another note, while poking around on eBay and the likes, I found that there is a T8 tube LED bulb to replace the fluorescent lights and the LED's range from 15-20w instead of 32w each from the regular T8 bulbs. I might look into getting these when I burn through the T8 lights that we already bought. It requires removing the ballast and starter form the setup but I don't see that as a big deal. Sure would help cut down on wH usage in there with the lights on. 64 * 3 = 192w per hour for the fluorescent, 40 * 3 = 120w for the LED tubes. I've got a feeling the technology is rather young still since the light tubes aren't very cheap either.
                            Great idea using those LED tubes. I have installed 4 of those 20w LED 4 foot lamps and 4 x 10w LED 2 foot lamps in my home about 2 years ago. The installation was easy and they do put out a lot more light then the fluorescent lamps they replaced. They were much more expensive but will eventually pay for themselves in lower wattage, less heat and longer life.

                            I also installed 8 x 4watt LED lamps in ceiling cans in my kitchen. They look just like the small quartz lamps with a G10 base. I now have 32 watts lighting an area that originally had over 300 watts of fluorescent lamps and my Wife doesn't have any issues.

                            Comment

                            • unt0uchable
                              Member
                              • Oct 2013
                              • 35

                              #29
                              I've been trying to replace all of my recessed bulbs for a year now, but I have 35 cans throughout the house, all currently running (what I believe to be) 60w incandescent flood lights. With LED bulbs for these applications sitting around $15-20/each, I just can't justify it yet by spending $500 in bulbs. I think we are going to start doing one room at a time. And now that you mentioned it, I forgot that I have a 4 bulb 4' fluorescent in the kitchen that's worth buying some led tubes for to get it started. Considering that's where we spend most of the time...

                              Comment

                              • Naptown
                                Solar Fanatic
                                • Feb 2011
                                • 6880

                                #30
                                Look into cfl bulbs for the recess lights
                                Standard ones aren't much more than an R-30 bulb
                                Dimmable run about $10 each.
                                They are 14w instead of 65
                                NABCEP certified Technical Sales Professional

                                [URL="http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?5334-Solar-Off-Grid-Battery-Design"]http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...Battery-Design[/URL]

                                [URL]http://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html[/URL] (Voltage drop Calculator among others)

                                [URL="http://www.gaisma.com"]www.gaisma.com[/URL]

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