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Edison ED-240 flooded NiCd cells.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
    we are reading your questions
    Thank you very much. I am watching your experience with NiFe closely. Thank you for your updates.

    I may have the ability to acquire a large quantity of ED-240 cells. One of the challenges I face is shipping the cells.

    I would like to deactivate these cells, drain them to lower the pallet weight and remove any chance of carbonated electrolyte, and ship them to my farm. The entire process would probably take 4 months or so.

    If anyone has overhauled/deactivated/re-activated a flooded NiFe or NiCd cell, I sure would like to hear from them.

    Any reference material on the topic would be GREATLY appreciated. I am amazed that I cannot find a scanned pdf of the original ED-240 documentation. It appears that there were a lot of these cells in circulation.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by plataoplomo View Post
      If anyone has overhauled/deactivated/re-activated a flooded NiFe or NiCd cell, I sure would like to hear from them.
      Any reference material on the topic would be GREATLY appreciated.
      There must be somebody out there who has had experience with NiCad batteries in Telco use at some point.
      For the NiFe cells, Changhong, a current manufacturer of NiFe using different manufacturing than the original Edison has published advice on draining their batteries for storage or shipment and, if I recall correctly, a properly drained and sealed cell should be good for about a year interval before re-activation, and the re-activation consisted primarily of refilling and charging.
      What I do not recall is whether they advised draining the cell while it was in a fully charged state or a discharged state.
      SunnyBoy 3000 US, 18 BP Solar 175B panels.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by inetdog View Post
        Changhong, a current manufacturer of NiFe using different manufacturing than the original Edison has published advice on draining their batteries for storage or shipment and, if I recall correctly, a properly drained and sealed cell should be good for about a year interval before re-activation, and the re-activation consisted primarily of refilling and charging.
        What I do not recall is whether they advised draining the cell while it was in a fully charged state or a discharged state.
        Thank you very much.

        Do you remember where you found that info? I'm not seeing any mention of it in the User manual available from their site.

        Here is an interesting link I found on another forum from a guy with an active Changhong install. (Mods ... sorry for the forum reference.)

        http://www.survivalistboards.com/sho...=276932&page=2

        Home power Magazine Issue #15 pg 19. Is a very good read.

        Comment


        • #19
          Information you need if you are using Saft ED-240 NiCad Batteries

          Originally posted by plataoplomo View Post
          Thank you very much.

          Do you remember where you found that info? I'm not seeing any mention of it in the User manual available from their site.

          Here is an interesting link I found on another forum from a guy with an active Changhong install. (Mods ... sorry for the forum reference.)

          http://www.survivalistboards.com/sho...=276932&page=2

          Home power Magazine Issue #15 pg 19. Is a very good read.
          I just found this and thought I should share a few things. First, you cannot just drain the electrolyte. You will destroy the batteries. In the procedure to replace the electrolyte, it states you must recover the battery plates within 10 minutes. I am sure that their must be a procedure for storage. But these batteries hardly leak at all. Mine were stored in a garage for 5 years and still held 1.2 volts charge.

          The electrolyte is changeable and I have the formula. The electrolyte does not freeze. If they go completly dead and are stored, you have to change the electrolyte. Batteries that were made in 1933 are still working today with a higher output than what they were rated for when new. If you don't do something crazy, these things are designed to last forever. Saft bought out Edison battery company. They eliminated all of the edison products, but not the ideas behind them.

          Saft continued to make these in North Carolina until the Govt Safety Regged them to death in about 1990. Now they are made overseas. Saft now concentrates on Lithium batteries for US manufacture and are now located in Atlanta GA. You can find their address and phone number with a search of SAFT NIFE Atlanta GA. Each battery has a Serial number and that serial number includes information on the date the battery was manufactured. I guess I am lucky. I have the Railco Charger made for these batteries and I have 40 of them as well. I also have 18 Exide flat plate, acid Lead-antimony batteries that are real Hosses. 2.1 volts, 590 Amp-hours (20 hour rating) and weigh 130 pounds each. I can get 24 more. They were the backup power supply for a Power generating facility and were meticulously maintained. They had a 20 year warranty. And are 20 years old now. They ran the coolant and lubrication motors and the Control room when a Generator had to be shut down either for a Major Outage or for generator overhaul. So they were rarely used, like once per 5 years and annually they used 10% to make sure everything was working if they were needed. They were never deep discharged. A total of 4 were replaced under warranty during the 20 years out of 2 banks of 96 batteries each.

          I have literature on both of these types batteries including the owners manual for the Exide batteries and anybody who wants it can have the information. Since I am really new at this forum thing, some one might have to walk me how to get the info into the right format. And I am trying to learn all I can as well.

          Ron Harrison.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Novaman73 View Post
            I just found this and thought I should share a few things. First, you cannot just drain the electrolyte. You will destroy the batteries. In the procedure to replace the electrolyte, it states you must recover the battery plates within 10 minutes. .........
            Thanks Ron, for offering to share all this.

            Mike
            Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
            || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
            || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

            solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
            gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

            Comment


            • #21
              Hi Ron - Well done and welcome to Solar Panel Talk!
              [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Novaman73 View Post

                you cannot just drain the electrolyte. You will destroy the batteries. ....

                The electrolyte is changeable and I have the formula......

                I have literature on both of these types ......

                some one might have to walk me how to get the info into the right format......
                Thank you very much. PM sent.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Formula for Flooded cell

                  Originally posted by plataoplomo View Post
                  Thank you very much. PM sent.
                  Date Codes
                  The Edison ED series batteries manufactured by SAB NIFE, Greenville,
                  NC have date codes stamped into the top of the cells. Each cell
                  has an individual date code/serial number consisting of nine numerals.
                  In the nine digit serial number date code, such as 088569159, the first two numerals represent the
                  month and the next two numerals represent the year of manufacture.
                  In this example, we see that the first two digits are 08, representing
                  the month of August. The second two digits of this example date
                  code are 85, representing the year 1985. The remainder of the date
                  code is the cell serial number for the date of manufacture.

                  Reconditioning a Cell
                  Charge cell at C/10 rate for 16 hours.
                  Remove electrolyte from cell by turning the cell upside down and
                  pouring the electrolyte into a plastic bucket.
                  Dispose of this caustic electrolyte in a responsible manner!
                  Replace electrolyte with "NEW" electrolyte within five minutes.
                  Damage will occur to the cell if it is dry for greater than five
                  minutes. Use KOH electrolyte with a specific gravity of 1.190 gr./ml.,
                  consisting of KOH dissolved in H2O, and LiOH. The lithium hydroxide
                  should be approximately 12 gr./liter of electrolyte. If you are
                  mixing your own electrolyte using dry KOH & LiOH flakes, be sure
                  to let the exothermic reaction cool before testing specific gravity.
                  Add mineral oil to provide approximately 1/8" oil float on the surface
                  of the electrolyte.
                  Charge battery and then completely discharge. If a cell has been sitting discharged,
                  it might take up to 6 cycles to reach maximum capacity.

                  Knowing When to Recondition
                  With Use or time some of the Potassium will be reduced and form K2CO3. When this
                  level reaches 15%, the electrolite will be need to be changed as the capacity will be
                  reduced greatly at levels above 15%.
                  You may have to consult your friendly High School Chemistry teacher or have a much
                  better memory than I do to remember the math on how to calculate the percentage, but I do
                  have the procedure.

                  Materials required
                  Hydrochloric Acid, 1 N
                  Buret, 25 ml.
                  Buret stand, white porcelain base
                  Pipette, 5 ml.
                  Phenolphthalein pH indicator, 1%
                  Methyl orange, 0.1% (w/v) Aqueous
                  Erlenmeyer flask, 250 ml.
                  Graduated cylinder, 100 ml.
                  Distilled water

                  Procedure
                  1. Using pipette remove 5 ml. electrolyte from cell and transfer
                  to the 250 ml. Erlenmeyer flask.
                  2. Add 50 ml. distilled water to the Erlenmeyer flask.
                  3. Add 2 drops phenolphthalein pH indicator to the Erlenmeyer flask.
                  Note the pink color to the liquid.
                  4. Using the buret, titrate with 1N HCL to clear. Record the number
                  of milliliters 1N HCL to clear as A= ml.
                  5. Add 4 drops methyl orange to Erlenmeyer flask. Note the yellow-orange
                  color.
                  6. Continue the titration until the yellow-orange color changes
                  to pink-orange. Record this final value of the titration as B= ml.

                  With these numbers and the Formula, you can calculate the % of K2CO3. Or someone
                  taking college chemistry could do this in 15 minutes as all of the equipment is used
                  on a regular basis. You can also fudge and use a syringe for your exact measurements.

                  I hope this helps someone along the way. I have other information, but I did not want to take up too much
                  space at one time.

                  Ron H

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Novaman73 View Post
                    I hope this helps someone along the way. I have other information, but I did not want to take up too much
                    space at one time.
                    Thank you very much

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Thanks for sharing!
                      [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by plataoplomo View Post
                        Thank you very much
                        I sent a message to Admin, as I cannot PM as I am a NewBe. I have the Owners manuals on a these batteries and the Exide batteries and other info. This is a printscreen of the first page of a disclosure to EPA. It gives the % by weight of the parts of the battery. Because the weight is a constant, the percentage of the KOH and LiOH which is given by weight can be used with the 12grams per liter of electrolite to calculate the amount of KOH can be calculated to put you on the mark for the target specific gravity of the completed mixture. The company contact info is here as well, but it may be outdate. Mr Google can confirm though.

                        SAB NIFE, INC -- INDUSTRIAL NICKEL CADMIUM STORAGE BATTERY -- 6135-00-616-4413
                        ===================== Product Identification =====================

                        Product ID:INDUSTRIAL NICKEL CADMIUM STORAGE BATTERY
                        MSDS Date:06/16/1994
                        FSC:6135
                        NIIN:00-616-4413
                        MSDS Number: BZPHH
                        === Responsible Party ===
                        Company Name:SAB NIFE, INC
                        Address:711 INDUSTRIAL BLVD
                        Box:1886
                        City:VALDOSTA (FORMALLY IN GREENVILLE, NC)
                        State:GA
                        ZIP:31603-1886
                        Country:US
                        Info Phone Num:912-247-2331/FAX 912-245-2827
                        Emergency Phone Num:800-424-9300(CHEMTREC)
                        CAGE:1HB35

                        ============= Composition/Information on Ingredients =============

                        Ingred Name:CASE MATERIAL, INGREDS 2,3,4
                        Fraction by Wt: 10%
                        Other REC Limits:NONE RECOMMENDED

                        Ingred Name:ACRYLIC POLYMER (NOT SPECIFIED)
                        Fraction by Wt: ING 1%
                        Other REC Limits:NONE RECOMMENDED

                        Ingred Name:POLYSULFONE CONTAINER
                        Fraction by Wt: ING 1%
                        Other REC Limits:NONE RECOMMENDED

                        Ingred Name:POLYPROPYLENE CONTAINER
                        Fraction by Wt: ING 1%
                        Other REC Limits:NONE RECOMMENDED

                        Ingred Name:NICKEL OXIDE, SOLID
                        CAS:1313-99-1
                        RTECS #:QR8400000
                        Fraction by Wt: <1%
                        Other REC Limits:NONE RECOMMENDED
                        OSHA PEL:1 MG/M3 AS NI
                        ACGIH TLV:1 MG/M3 AS NI

                        Ingred Name:LITHIUM HYDROXIDE MONOHYDRATE
                        CAS:1310-66-3
                        RTECS #:OJ6307080
                        Fraction by Wt: 3%
                        Other REC Limits:NONE RECOMMENDED

                        Ingred Name:GRAPHITE (TYPE NOT SPECIFIED)
                        Fraction by Wt: 28%
                        Other REC Limits:NONE RECOMMENDED

                        Ingred Name:POTASSIUM HYDROXIDE (CERCLA), ELECTROLYTE SOLUTION (18-28%
                        POTASSIUM HYUDROXIDE)
                        CAS:1310-58-3
                        RTECS #:TT2100000
                        Fraction by Wt: 39%
                        Other REC Limits:NONE RECOMMENDED
                        OSHA PEL:C 2 MG/M3
                        ACGIH TLV:C 2 MG/M3; 9596
                        EPA Rpt Qty:1000 LBS
                        DOT Rpt Qty:1000 LBS

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Novaman73 View Post
                          I cannot PM as I am a NewBe.
                          I understand. Thank you. I am very willing to work with you to transfer your manuals into electronic format. If you wish.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Novaman73 View Post
                            Date Codes
                            The Edison ED series batteries manufactured by SAB [B]NI[COLOR="#FF0000"]FE[/COLOR][/B], Greenville,
                            NC have date codes stamped into the top of the cells. .....
                            Is this for ni-[B]CAD[/B] or ni-[B]FE[/B] ? just asking, as this thread is titled nicd, but the battery mfg
                            is listed as SAB NIFE
                            Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                            || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                            || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                            solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                            gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
                              Is this for ni-[B]CAD[/B] or ni-[B]FE[/B] ? just asking, as this thread is titled nicd, but the battery mfg
                              is listed as SAB NIFE
                              This is for a NiCad battery that is used primarily in the Railroad industry at crossings to power warning lights and to raise and lower the crossing gates when the power has been interupted. These are 1.2 volt cells with a 260 Ah rating that were manufactured by a company called Saft NIFE. This is no doubt due to the company's original products. This particular battery was originally designed by the Edison Battery Company. They were bought by Saft and the name was discontinued. The actual model is E-260 which is the designation that it carried when it was the product of EBC. The E is for Edison. EBC was bought basically to do away with competition and for their patents so that another line could be added.

                              Originally Saft was planning on making batteries for electric cars using this technology in the early 90's. Govt and OSHA reared their ugly heads and issued mandates that essentially killed the large capacity NiCad manufacturing of Saft in the mid 90's.

                              And because of these regulations, the factory in North Carolina had to be closed because of the "contamination" from years of making NiCad batteries. The manufacture of these batteries was moved overseas and Saft moved their offices and production of the next generation of batteries using Lithium technology to Valdosta, GA.

                              Ron H

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Would love to see any documents you have!

                                Ron,

                                I am always getting questions from people about their ED series battery (ED 240's, ED 400's, etc.) Would you please send me an email with any documents you have - we are always looking to share accurate info about these rare batteries. Thanks for sharing everything so far. My email is: infoATironedison.com

                                -BW

                                Originally posted by Novaman73 View Post
                                ....

                                I hope this helps someone along the way. I have other information, but I did not want to take up too much
                                space at one time.

                                Ron H

                                [COLOR="#B22222"]--Mod note: For your protection against email harvesting bots and spam I have disguised the email address by changing @ to AT. [/COLOR]
                                Last edited by inetdog; 08-14-2014, 05:14 PM. Reason: Inactivated email link

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