The intelligent buyers guide to NiFe / Truly dry Rolls Surrette supplier.

[russ]

News about bad results are as important as news about good results - maybe not for the one doing the test but to the rest of us.

[Sunking]

I was an electronic technician by trade. Retired now. Just not in the power field. More in the computer / atmospheric instrumentation / measurement field.

OK then you have the technical and math skills to do comparisons.

For a Nife system you are going to want at least a 3-day reserve capacity minimum, and 5 day capacity for FLA. Armed with that info do some cost benefit analysis.

First step is determine the difference in support equipment mainly panel wattage and charge controller size. NiFe has a poor charge efficiency of 60% vs 80 to 90% for FLA. What that means is it wil take more panel wattage and charge controller amps using NiFe. For example if you need say 5 Kwh/day, winter Insolation is 3 hours, using MPPT charge controller, battery voltage 48 volts. Using FLA would take a 2500 watts with a 60 amp MPPT charge controller,. NiFe will take 3400 watts and a 80 amp CC. That is about a $2000 difference so far.

A good quality Rolls 5000 Series FLA battery with a 10 year warranty will cost you roughly $210/Kwh. It would require a capacity of 25 Kwh for a 5-day capacity. So $210 x 25 = $5250.

For a NiFe from a Chi-Com manufacture will require a 15 Kwh battery. I do not know exactly what a Chi-Com $/Kwh cost are, or what warranty the carry, but my best estimate will cost around $800/Kwh. So for a 15 Kwh NiFe is $800 x 15 = $12,000.

So initial installation cost difference is roughly $9000 higher with NiFe option.

Well here is what I will say about it. Rolls is one of the very best in the biz and been around for 80 years with excellent customer service. Treat the batteries right and you will get 7 to 10 years of service out of the. You will have saved enough to buy 2 more replacement sets in the future so you are looking at 30 years.

With the Chi-Com NiFe battery I cannot tell you how long they have been around, the quality of the product, how long it will actually last, maintenance cost, costcustomer service, and warranty replacement.

FWIW I have no vested interest in any battery technology or chemistry. Just 30+ years of experience working with them.

Hope that helps.

Sent via Droid.

[plataoplomo]

Thank you very much.

I need to chew on those numbers a bit. I'm still in the exploration phase of things. I've learned a bunch from my current bank.

If I may ask. "Dry Charged" is when the manufacturer activates the cell, tests it, then drains it prior to shipping to the distributor or end user. Lifespan countdown starts at this activation? Correct?

At this stage I am not a NiFe, Lead Acid, NiCd, LiPO4, or magical smoke emitted from flying faerie butts advocate.

Actually I am beginning to HATE them all. That being said I have learned some concerns with Lead Acid batteries.

Treat the batteries right

That is operative phrase here. From what I'm seeing with this first bank. Lead Acid's are a very fragile and temperamental bunch.

<RANT ON>

Keep them above 80% charged at all times.
Don't let em get TOO cold.
Don't let em get TOO hot.
Don't charge them TOO slow.
Don't charge them TOO fast.
Don't discharge them TOO fast.
Don't configure them in parallel legs.
Don't water them TOO much.
Don't water them TOO little.
Don't water them with dirty water.

Transgress here and YOUR HOSED.

I'm down on equator. Annual average temperature is 85f +. That's gonna cut my battery life in half. Unless I air condition the space. That will eat up all of my available power. What's the sense of a RE system in the first place. Snake eating it's tail.

To configure a 48vdc serial string of PbSO larger than 800ah pretty much guarantees that it will be $10K+ set of batteries.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afbLb8A6oSE

Jeeezz I wish I had it as easy as a battery. Where's the Tylenol?
</RANT OFF>

[Mike90250]

Today has been a rough day.
Wet ground shifted, breaking a 2.5" water line 2 weeks ago when we got a monster storm. That drained my water storage (3, 3,000 gal tanks) in a couple hours. House is running off a 4th tank feeding slow sand filter system. That ran dry last night. Today was pipe repairs, and the failure of a "RT1" in my IOTA charger. The RT1 looks like it is a series Surgister to limit inrush at turn-in. My charging system has now completely failed. 3 backups, none working.
So it was a rush rewire to get 240VAC from another generator, into the XW, and now I can charge and pump water once more.

With the bad cloudy rainy weather the past 10 days, I've been running generators to keep battery bank charged, and I'm running in the lower 1/3 of charge level for 7-13 days at a time, with no sun. That would destroy a lead acid battery bank, without even more generator charging, to keep it up over 80%
However, with the NiFe, I have less efficiency than Pb-H2So4, so I need to feed it more amps, to
withdraw the same amount of power. Tradeoffs !

NiFe looks like the killer is going to be the electrolyte change outs every 3-7 years. Messy. I'm looking at some fancy setup to mix the new electrolyte in nitrogen purged steel drums, so it does not absorb Co2 while cooling. (I'll have close to 100 gallons of hot "lye" that has to cool before pumping into batteries).
NiFe also drinks a lot of distilled water, I'm making some grocer and supplier lots of $$ keeping the batteries topped off. The cells last, but the electrolyte does not.
I have the carbonate test kit, and will test my electrolyte when I'm not fighting other fires, but something is always coming up to distract me.
So far, they (NiFe) work, but it's not a set and forget technology, and if you cannot program your charger and inverter to accommodate the needed voltage range (purchase the right gear) it won't work. The XW inverter and MS MPPT controller I bought for my PbH2So4 bank, were adaptable to the needed ranges.

[plataoplomo]

Mike, Thank you for posting in the middle of your emergency. I really appreciate it.

Today has been a rough day. Wet ground shifted, breaking a 2.5" water line 2 weeks ago when we got a monster storm.

I laid a bunch of irrigation pipe. I was afraid of the same thing, along with hazards from animals and farm machinery. My solution was to pack my trenches with a mix of 3 parts sand to one part local clay and 1 part portland cement. That mix makes a very hard substance that Nadir Khalili calls "super adobe". We actually built our dome house out of the stuff.

Sets up at about 900psi or so depending on your soil clay content. Not as strong as concrete but plenty strong enough for your average civil engineering jobs. Don't know if that helps you. But it sure stabilized my lines.

I'm running in the lower 1/3 of charge level for 7-13 days at a time, with no sun. That would destroy a lead acid battery bank

That actually is a huge concern I have. We have a three month long monsoon season. We can go for weeks with a solid, non-stop downpour. Floods everywhere but our farm. Power always goes out.

I'm looking at some fancy setup to mix the new electrolyte in nitrogen purged steel drums, so it does not absorb Co2 while cooling.

Uhmm .... If memory serves, Nitrogen is 3% lighter than air. Your CO barrier would either waft away if your container is open or fill the containment from the top down if closed. Might trap the carbon right on top of your electrolyte mix.

I'm not too hot on the chemistry here, perhaps Robert would be a better person to talk to. How about another noble gas? Argon is the first to come to mind. It is 38% heavier, but it is awful expensive.

Excuse me .... just thinking out loud.

I have the carbonate test kit, and will test my electrolyte when I'm not fighting other fires

I am real interested in the results of this. You are where the "rubber meets the road".

if you cannot program your charger and inverter to accommodate the needed voltage range

May I ask what set points you have in your system?

Thank you very .... VERY much for your time. Maraming Salamat Po

[russ]

For protecting your hot lye while it is cooling - if you can close the top of the barrel to where there is only a small opening and get a cylinder of N2 a constant slow purge would preserve the atmosphere over the lye - wouldn't take a lot of gas.

[Sunking]

That is operative phrase here. From what I'm seeing with this first bank. Lead Acid's are a very fragile and temperamental bunch.

<RANT ON>

Keep them above 80% charged at all times.
Don't let em get TOO cold.
Don't let em get TOO hot.
Don't charge them TOO slow.
Don't charge them TOO fast.
Don't discharge them TOO fast.
Don't configure them in parallel legs.
Don't water them TOO much.
Don't water them TOO little.
Don't water them with dirty water.

OK don't take this wrong but you are fooling yourself, and the end result is you end up making decision based on misinformation or just plain wrong. So I am going to pick this apart so you are armed with FACTS and not myths and hoax.

FLA batteries need to be kept above 50%, not 80% period. Where you are picking up 80% is from the 20% DOD daily. By doing that gives you on paper is 5 days reserve capacity, but to keep at 50% or more in real practices is 2.5 days before you get to 50%. But here is something you need to think about and understand. NiFe batteries have a very steep discharge cure meaning at full charge 100% cell voltage is 1.4 @ 50% is 1 volt. So for a nominal 12 volt system you use 10 cells. At full charge is 14 volts, inverter and 12 volt equipment is happy happy. At 50% is 10 volts. Inverter and Equipment does not work at 10 volts. You cannot likely use the last 50% unless you have equipment specifically designed to do so as Mike pointed out to you. FLA batteries at 50% are 2 volts per cell or 12 volts and equipment is happy at 12 volts and runs.

Too hot, Too cold? What are you talking about? LA can take just as much heat and cold as NiFe. LA performs better than NiFe under the temperature extremes. LA capacity lowers as it gets colder. NiFe looses more capacity then LA when it gets cold. However cold weather is not an issue for you. Heat FLA capacity goes above rated capacity. NiFe goes up too but not as much. So in conclusion LA is better adapted to weather extremes than NiFe. In fact LA performs better than any other battery chemistry in heat and cold so you got no argument in that respect.

Charge Too Slow/Fast or Discharge Slow/Fast. Well again you are fooling yourself. While it is true Deep Cycle Flooded Lead Acid batteries are limited to a max C/8 charge/discharge rate which is due to moderately high internal resistance. However NiFe has significantly higher internal resistance which means even lower slower charge/discharge rates. With that said hybrid FLA and AGM can go as high as 1C and then some in special designs at the expense of cycle life. But here is the deal. In a properly designed system using FLA, the charge rates fall in the sweet spot of C/8 to C/12. LA will outperform NiFe in any respect of discharge/charge rates. It is no contest.

Parallel? OK but you do not want NiFe in parallel either.

Water? Again what are you talking about? NiFe uses more water, and needs to be just as clean as the water used in LA batteries. Only advantage NiFe has over LA is if the plates become exposed to air can damage LA batteries.

Trust me I wished there was a better battery out there. But today there is not. Lithum has promise, but not there yet.

[inetdog]

For protecting your hot lye while it is cooling - if you can close the top of the barrel to where there is only a small opening and get a cylinder of N2 a constant slow purge would preserve the atmosphere over the lye - wouldn't take a lot of gas.

Mike: If you can get your hands on a low pressure regulator (as used for NG or LPG appliances) you can safety vent the cooling tank through a water column bubbler and keep a positive pressure in the tank with regulated nitrogen. Anywhere from 1/2" to 12" water column would be doable with a regulator and could still use a simple water bubbler to allow venting of any overpressure.

Do a free flow purge of the residual air first. Or just don't worry about the small amount of CO2 in the initial headroom? Just keeping the free-space volume small will help a lot. Or use a layer of almost any kind of alkali-resistant oil during the cooling only and then skim it off before filling the cells. (Skim by draining the tank from the bottom if you don't feel comfortable getting the oil off the top!)

[plataoplomo]

I am going to pick this apart so you are armed with FACTS and not myths and hoax.

Thank you very much for the time. I would like to ask some very basic questions as we go. I am not trying to be a smart-ass. I really do not know. I am hoping to clear away the disinformation I may have absorbed.

Because of my current and ongoing battery bank experiences, My major point of focus is battery bank lifespan.

I am fortunate in that I have a fantastic solar resource 9 months out of the year. So bank efficiency is not my over riding concern.

For the other three months of the year ..... well we all grow gills and deal with it.

I need my battery chemistry to be able to cope

OR

I need to develop a realistic grid down plan to help that bank chemistry survive the monsoon season.

FLA batteries need to be kept above 50%, not 80% period. Where you are picking up 80% is from the 20% DOD daily.

Question 1. At what point does a Lead acid battery cell begin to sulphinate?

Question 2. If I ran a Rolls Surette FLA bank at 50 -> 80% of its capacity for 3 months solid out of a 12 month time frame. How long would that battery bank last?

Too hot, Too cold? What are you talking about? LA can take just as much heat and cold as NiFe.

** NOTE *** My average annual temperature is 85f +

Question 3. What happens to the lifespan of Lead Acid cells at temperatures above 77f?

How does this compare with other battery chemistries?

While it is true Deep Cycle Flooded Lead Acid batteries are limited to a max C/8 charge/discharge rate.

Question 4. What happens to the lifespan of Lead Acid cells at charges/discharges in excess of C/8?

Parallel? OK but you do not want NiFe in parallel either.

Neat little facts that I picked up from you on this board. Thank you Sensei. I wish I had talked to you before I purchased my first bank.

Parallel charging inequalities is a discrete little caveat that no one really talks about. It forces you into the upper end of battery technology, If your wanting to store serious (400ah+) amounts of power for long periods of time.

The only consolation, and it is a small one, is that you don't destroy your battery with NiFe, (at least that is what I've been told), just the electrolyte. Which can be replaced at great expense .... of course.

This bullet item I listed not so much as a point against lead acid chemistry. Just a generalized bitch in the middle of my rant.

Only advantage NiFe has over LA is if the plates become exposed to air can damage LA batteries.

May I ask you a few other questions?

Question 5. What is "dry activation"?

Question 6. When is a lead acid battery "born"? When does the lifespan countdown start?

Question 7. Last but not least. In your personal experience/opinion ... What brand is the longest lived Lead acid battery? What brand is the most robust to abuse?

Trust me I wished there was a better battery out there.

Please don't misunderstand me. I'M NOT PUSHING NiFe. I have begun to despise ALL battery chemistries.

More correctly I have begun to loathe the economic controls that herd me into purchasing the "slowest sinking" boat in a limited set of leaking vessels.


Once again thank you VERY VERY much for your time.

[plataoplomo]

Or use a layer of almost any kind of alkali-resistant oil during the cooling only and then skim it off before filling the cells. (Skim by draining the tank from the bottom if you don't feel comfortable getting the oil off the top!)

That is smart! What a good idea. I am gonna tuck that one away for future use. Thank you.

[Sunking]

Question 1. At what point does a Lead acid battery cell begin to sulphinate?
Question 2. If I ran a Rolls Surette FLA bank at 50 -> 80% of its capacity for 3 months solid out of a 12 month time frame. How long would that battery bank last?
Question 3. What happens to the lifespan of Lead Acid cells at temperatures above 77f?
Q3B. How does this compare with other battery chemistries?
Question 4. What happens to the lifespan of Lead Acid cells at charges/discharges in excess of C/8?
Question 5. What is "dry activation"?
Question 6. When is a lead acid battery "born"? When does the lifespan countdown start?
Question 7. Last but not least. In your personal experience/opinion ... What brand is the longest lived Lead acid battery? What brand is the most robust to abuse?

A1. Anything less than 100%. However if less than 50% or recharged withing a day the crystals are soft and will be dissolved back into the electrolyte. Well most of it will be. After time with good care every LA battery will fail from sulphated plates. Now if you let the battery set in less than 100% or once they go below 50% those crystals hardens, and once that happens it is pernament, well almost pernmament as an EQ charge can dissolve some but not all.

A2 Not for sure but I can say will shorten th ecycle life significantly. If I had to guess 25 to 50% based on DOD vs Cycle life charts.

A3. Will shorten the life if tempurute compensation is not employed. A3B Same result. Cold decreases capacity but provides longer life. Heat does the opposite. Keep in mind FLA batteries have considerable thermal mass. They will not get as warm as you day time highs, nor will they cool down to your night time lows. Somewhere in the middle.

A4. Nothing. On the charge side when you exceed C/8 creates excessive heat and boiling acid causing the batteries to gas excessively and use excessive water. On the discharge side higher than C/8 you start running into voltage sag. Both are caused by the internal resistance of the battery. Th eother thing with high discharge rates is Peukert Law which states the higher discharge rate the battery is discharged, the less capacity you have. So what that means is if you have a battery rated at 100 AH at the C/20 rate and you discharge it at say C/2, the battery will only have say 45 AH of capacity. This is again due to internal resistance.

A5 and A6. The battery is built, charged, washed and dried, sealed, and shipped without electrolyte. It can be stored for up to 18 months. When put into use, electrolyte and charging are required. Batteries of this type have a long shelf life. So when you receive one, check the date code to make sure it is 18 months or less. Timer starts when you activate with electrolyte.

A7. OK the key is the warranty. The Two Best are Rolls Surrette 5000 Series, and Enersys Solar One HUP. Rolls has 10 years, and Enersys has 12 year. Professionally I use Enersys.

[plataoplomo]

A1. However if less than 50% or recharged withing a day the crystals are soft and will be dissolved back into the electrolyte.

What I have been doing to date is applying a small charge, (15a into a three parallel leg 600ah bank), from a grid connected golf cart charger on dark days and monsoon times. I don't know if this is correct but my thinking is that as long as I get the ions moving in the other direction its gotta help.

A2. Not for sure but I can say will shorten th ecycle life significantly.

So I'm gonna effectively kill a lead acid bank in a few years unless I come up with alternate charging scheme OR switch to an unknown/dodgy/over-hyped battery chemistry

A3. Will shorten the life if temperature compensation is not employed.

I have an Outback RTS connected to my inverter. I've seen it modify things in operation so I know its working.

I was under the impression that operating in hot climates shortened bank lifespan regardless of temperature correction. That is incorrect?

A4. Nothing.

I thought that excessive current flowing in or out caused the plates to warp and mal-form. With associated plate material shedding and increased possibility of plate shorts and opens.

That is incorrect?

Batteries of this type have a long shelf life.

18 months being considered a long time? Are there any lead acid manufacturers offering greater time on shelf lifespans?

A7. OK the key is the warranty.

Here is where my particular circumstance comes into play. I am way out in the provinces on a Pacific island. Economics being what they are, there is NO way to ship these batteries back to the world. Hazmat charges alone would exceed the cost of a replacement battery.

Neither Rolls or Enersys have a distributor on the island. On this island I have only found Chi-com and India knock offs.

So warranties are largely useless to me. Thus my over-riding focus on bank durability and lifespan.

Enersys Solar One HUP

Thank you. I will look at them very closely.

[Mike90250]

For protecting your hot lye while it is cooling - if you can close the top of the barrel to where there is only a small opening and get a cylinder of N2 a constant slow purge would preserve the atmosphere over the lye - wouldn't take a lot of gas.

That's the route I have in mind.

[Sundetective]

Any such statements will be disputed by somebody, and we are back in the same old flame wars we have seen before.
If there is nobody that people will agree to accept as an authority on this (definitely not the same as saying that there is nobody who IS an authority on this!) then an open sticky thread will serve no useful purpose.

Dereck is, I think, indisputably an authority on Lead Acid chemistry and available battery types in that chemistry, and very knowledgeable about other chemistries besides. But a lot of people will not take his word for anything.
Mike will be an unbiased expert resource on NiFe use from a practical perspective, but he is not willing to offer a firm conclusion for a few years yet. He has already described early frustrations and issues which he is trying to work past, and those are revealing. But he is still hoping that he has been doing something wrong.
Sundetective has done a lot of research on NiFe, but is not able to convince people through his posts.

I do not see a clean solution other than reading all of the relevant threads and posts, and then evaluating the arguments for yourself.

I'm not quite sure just what I have tried to 'convince' people to do.
It's been a slow going, on and off, interest waiting on more feed back.
No rush.
I definitely have some ideas but no rush on that either.

Do have to say that I feel that 'Changhong and The Electric Indian' might be shaking their heads some.
They have been pretty straight about their batteries having great strengths as well as weaknesses.
I would imagine if they felt that somebody was insistent on not listening to them -
then so be it.

http://www.changhongbatteries.com/Nickel-lron(Ni-Fe)_c13_m2.2.1.html

Pull up the Solar Ni-Fe Cell Catalogue.

Go to:

1.6.3 Internal Resistance

1.6.9 Water Consumption and Gas Evolution


As the years go bye - yet once again - old Bill asks thee.

Just what Voltage are these baby's getting juiced up at?

Is it time for a new charging scheme using a fairly simple hybrid system playing into

the strengths instead of whipping and dogging the poor things into an early grave?

Bill Blake

[plataoplomo]

As the years go bye - yet once again - old Bill asks thee.

Just what Voltage are these baby's getting juiced up at?

Is it time for a new charging scheme using a fairly simple hybrid system playing into

the strengths instead of whipping and dogging the poor things into an early grave?

Bill Blake

Say that again in English please. Preferably at the elementary school level and slowly. What are you saying?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Vw2CrY9Igs

Some of us .... namely me ...... are synaptically challenged.

Thank you very much.