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How Much NICKEL is Really in a Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery ??

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  • How Much NICKEL is Really in a Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery ??

    The Nickel Iron Lies & Wives' Tales Report.

    How much Nickel in the Nickel Iron Batteries?? This LIE has been holding air for too long now!

    Let's talk about PRICE Now without all this Limp, 'NICKEL is Too High' Jive Talk
    when it's only 20% of the cell.

    I'm still open minded about the Ni-Fe Batteries BUT

    ' I Can't Live on Lies or False Promises'.

    Still feel there may be a place (a great support role in a hybrid battery system) for the cells
    once they are stripped down to the bare truth in every way. Good and bad.

    That includes correcting the price.

    <snip>

    MSDS NO. : CHANGHONG 2011

    MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET

    1. PRODUCT DESCRIPTION

    Product Description: Industrial Nickel-Iron (NiFe) Rechargeable Battery Product Model: TN, NF-S Standard designation:

    In accordance with China National Standard/ Company Standard.

    Positive electrode: Nickel hydroxide Negative electrode: Iron hydroxide

    Electrolyte: Potassium hydroxide solution.

    The respective percentage contents of nickel and iron are 20% and 60%.

    Electrochemistry reaction formula: 2Ni(OH)2 + Fe(OH)2 = 2β-NiOOH+Fe+2H2O Nominal voltage: 1.2Volts

    2. COMPANY IDENFICATION

    Supplier Name: Sichuan Changhong Battery Co., Ltd.

    Address: NO.18 NANTA ROAD, SECTION 1, MIANYANG, CHINA

    For emergency assistance, call:0086-816-2863230/2863219

    <snip>


    http://www.changhongbatteries.com/do...7ae1a60d00ac8b...


    The Link has worked just fine for a long, long time.
    IF it doesn't work now that's on Changhong in the last couple of days - not on old Bill.


    Bill Blake

  • cekiert
    replied
    deep breath

    It isnt really metallic nickel causing it but mostly Nickel hydroxide, from the best information I can gather, from butching a tiny Chinese nickel iron cell. From a 1.2v 10ah cell I can pull out about 7.7oz of a graphite/nickel hydroxide mix of a unknown ratio. A quick note the stock battery has most likely steel covered in a black coating on for the bus bars. I Also saw rust peeking through the coating on a new cell. I bought this cell as a quality control evaluation as I suspected these longitivity issues. The graphite can cause nickel iron posioning http://www.ibiblio.org/london/altern...s/34/34p44.txt, the steel would be a huge issue down the road im sure the way it already rusting. Right now I'd say anyone thinking of making there own expect to pay 80-90% in just materials easily. Unless anyone is good enough at chemistry to make nickel hydroxide cheaply. The best option I can see for the $/kw over a period of 40 years of storage is making your own lead acid battery pack. lead acid batteries at about 98% recyclable. you can google to learn about metal casting, discover patents, get some good safety equipment to make longer lasting lead acid batteries. because of companies like "johnson controls", creating their own monopoly, and no longer needing to sell the best batteries. you can barely find good lead acid batteries being made. its about the only practical way, no company to going to make a product paying to use nearly every good patent if they dont need to. it might not be widely known but interstate optima batteries once used in ev's had sodium sulfate added for increased cycle life with claims of 1780 cycles over 5 years. unfortunately johnson controls found no reason to continue adding the sodium sulfate and removed it from the battery chemistry leading to shorter battery life in the optima series then before.
    just few:
    adding antimony to lead adds life to plates/trade off with more investment and needing electrolyte refilled more often

    making plates thicker for longer life

    others
    for great electrolyte http://www.google.com/patents/US5945236
    for deep cycling http://www.google.com/patents/US4425412

    if properly recycled after its end cycle it might be less dangerous for the environment then trying to dispose of electrolyte from a carbonated nickel iron cell, as modern nickel iron batteries add lithium hydroxide to the mix for a larger temperature range

    admirably the electrolyte from a nickel iron battery can stay on your skin for about 5 minutes before you start to feel a bleach tingle sensation supposedly 4 hours for serious tissue damage. while from a lead battery(30% sulfuric) acid isnt so kind.

    Leave a comment:


  • cekiert
    replied
    sorry for the grave digging

    it isnt really metallic nickel causing it but mostly Nickel hydroxide from the best information I can gather from butching a tiny Chinese nickel iron cell 1.2v 10h cell I can pull out about 7.7oz of a graphite/nickel hydroxide mix of a unknown ratio. the stock battery has most likely steel covered in a black coating on the bus bars, I saw rust peeking through the coating on a new cell. I bought this cell as a quality control evaluation. the graphite can cause nickel iron posioning http://www.ibiblio.org/london/altern...s/34/34p44.txt, the steel would be a huge issue down the road im sure. right now I'd say anyone thinking of making there own expect to pay 80-90% in just materials easily. unless anyone is good enough at chemistry to make nickel hydroxide cheaply. The best option I can see for the $/kw over a period of 40 years of storage is making your own lead acid battery pack. lead acid batteries at about 98% recyclable. you can google to learn about metal casting, discover patents, get some good safety equipment to make longer lasting lead acid batteries. because of companies like "johnson controls", creating their own monopoly, and no longer needing to sell the best batteries. you can barely find good lead acid batteries being made. its about the only practical way, no company to going to make a product paying to use nearly every good patent if they dont need to. it might not be widely known but interstate optima batteries once used in ev's had sodium sulfate added for increased cycle life with claims of 1780 cycles over 5 years. unfortunately johnson controls found no reason to continue adding the sodium sulfate and removed it from the battery chemistry leading to shorter battery life in the optima series then before.
    just few:
    adding antimony to lead adds life to plates/trade off with more investment and needing electrolyte refilled more often

    making plates thicker for longer life

    others
    for great electrolyte http://www.google.com/patents/US5945236
    for deep cycling http://www.google.com/patents/US4425412

    if properly recycled after its end cycle it might be less dangerous for the environment then trying to dispose of electrolyte from a carbonated nickel iron cell, as modern nickel iron batteries add lithium hydroxide to the mix for a larger temperature range

    admirably the electrolyte from a nickel iron battery can stay on your skin for about 5 minutes before you start to feel a bleach tingle sensation supposedly 4 hours for serious tissue damage. while from a lead battery(30% sulfuric) acid isnt so kind.
    Originally posted by Sundetective View Post
    The Nickel Iron Lies & Wives' Tales Report.

    How much Nickel in the Nickel Iron Batteries?? This LIE has been holding air for too long now!

    Let's talk about PRICE Now without all this Limp, 'NICKEL is Too High' Jive Talk
    when it's only 20% of the cell.

    I'm still open minded about the Ni-Fe Batteries BUT

    ' I Can't Live on Lies or False Promises'.

    Still feel there may be a place (a great support role in a hybrid battery system) for the cells
    once they are stripped down to the bare truth in every way. Good and bad.

    That includes correcting the price.

    <snip>

    MSDS NO. : CHANGHONG 2011

    MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET

    1. PRODUCT DESCRIPTION

    Product Description: Industrial Nickel-Iron (NiFe) Rechargeable Battery Product Model: TN, NF-S Standard designation:

    In accordance with China National Standard/ Company Standard.

    Positive electrode: Nickel hydroxide Negative electrode: Iron hydroxide

    Electrolyte: Potassium hydroxide solution.

    The respective percentage contents of nickel and iron are 20% and 60%.

    Electrochemistry reaction formula: 2Ni(OH)2 + Fe(OH)2 = 2β-NiOOH+Fe+2H2O Nominal voltage: 1.2Volts

    2. COMPANY IDENFICATION

    Supplier Name: Sichuan Changhong Battery Co., Ltd.

    Address: NO.18 NANTA ROAD, SECTION 1, MIANYANG, CHINA

    For emergency assistance, call:0086-816-2863230/2863219

    <snip>


    http://www.changhongbatteries.com/do...7ae1a60d00ac8b...


    The Link has worked just fine for a long, long time.
    IF it doesn't work now that's on Changhong in the last couple of days - not on old Bill.


    Bill Blake

    Leave a comment:


  • tandrews
    replied
    If the stuff sent to new battery customers is indeed 56% LIOH, it's no wonder charge efficiencies are scoffed at.
    Any idea what the purity of KOH flake is? Worth making soap with it?
    The stuff I got was batched, came with a sheet noting impurities and stayed sealed until I mix(ed) it.
    It's all here:
    http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...ed-NCads/page3
    I guess I didn't post the entire LIOH batch sheet, but in 500g form it was 2% LiC03 - which is both the reason you buy the stuff and some of what you pay for.
    That likely happened prior to packaging at the factory...

    It may serve a new battery buyer to ask for cost without flake and source it locally with some agreement on levels of purity to be used.
    Not like they need permission, but knowing your warranty will stand warrants the effort.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sundetective
    replied
    Nickel Iron Batteries .. The Secrets of the Ancients

    Your starting to speak my kind of language about the cheap, CO2 laden Lithium Hydroxide but the Certified Reagent Grade (98%++)
    that was put in the proper containers > > > the moment it was manufactured < < < seems to be OK.

    This cheap 'Lab Grade' as they call it 56.5% LiOH stored in big paper bags and then put in plastic bags is a joke.

    It took a while but an email from last year that I sent to perhaps North America's best Ni-Fe authority seems to be
    sinking in based on a recent return email.

    The Chinese wanted to know who he was and we had to lay one of a Dad's old sayings on them.

    'If I tell you everything that I know - then you will be as smart as me'

    The LiOH deal reminds me of the old Ike and Tina Turner song.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDjnB_61k58

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Email from August, 2011

    <snip>

    Did you know the KOH or the LiOH can have plenty of CO2 in it while

    still in the powder form - in some cases?

    Remember Apollo 13.

    All hydroxides absorb CO2.

    LiOH is the King of them all.

    KOH is probably near Hydrated Lime at up to 18 POUNDS of CO2 absorbed

    per 50 pound bag.

    It has your 50 to 60 GRAMS per Liter 'Swinging'

    once it swells by around 7 times when enough water gets broken down

    into Hydrogen and Oxygen

    When the carbon dioxide combines with oxygen and LiOH it multiplies it's

    weight by a great deal. As with gasoline when it burns.

    Here your excessive charging voltage acts as 'the burn'.

    It just takes the right person to see it.

    It can be like Locking a hidden Fox up in the Chicken Coop and

    then putting the Dogs on patrol outside.

    Barking about keeping the next Fox OUT.

    I'll send you an email on it by next week.

    Thanks.

    Bill Blake

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Changhong is telling their commercial customers to not bother with the battery oil.
    They don't see enough difference. Old Bill may not agree with them if done by people that are on the ball using the
    right 'goodies' from the jump.

    Your Distilled Water is also probably Laden with CO2 or it wouldn't test acidic.

    Mike should throw a Carbonate Test on his Ni-Fe cells NOW and get the bad news. His less than 1/2 the size reservoirs
    ( compared to the next size up, NF800-S ) might be a disadvantage. However if he got the shaft and the electrolyte
    needs to be replaced less than 1/2 the volume is nice in a way.

    That new clear plastic the cases are made from may also be a huge problem.
    China says the new plastic is more expensive. Ask me if I care

    The batteries themselves are great. All Roads always did and always will lead to (NOW) expensive and time consuming
    Battery and Electrolyte Management.

    This is not the first field of study where superior truths were to be found with

    'The Secrets of the Ancients'.

    It's just that the subject has been 'Dummied Down' for people that wanted 'easy' and 'make believe'.

    Old Bill has your easy and make believe 'swinging'.
    It costs good time and money to keep those positive and negative plates nice and clean.

    If 'The Ni-Fe Theory of Battery-tivity' is as 'on time' as I think it is the more cheap grade LiOH
    you throw to it (once the problems begin) and the worse the carbonate dilemma will get - in a hurry.

    It's a complex problem that is going to take some understanding and some tweaking.
    Having a 20+ thousand dollar test bed of Ni-Fe cells wouldn't hurt anything.

    The subject really does need someone to write an entire book but there wouldn't be a whole lot of interest.
    I can't believe no one encouraged Marcus278 to continue with his first hand account in the

    'Nickel Iron (NiFe) Batteries ... The few, but Overwhelming and Towering Strengths'

    thread. The man only did 2 posts and he asked did you want more? What a shame. I wasn't posting at the time.

    He is not the first to think about jacking up the LiOH even further and he won't be the last.
    Keep in mind that Changhong and The Electric Indian already jacked it by 400% over 4 years ago
    but as you suspected they use a cheap, junk grade. The devils

    It's all part of 'The Ni-Fe Perfect Carbonate Storm' we started talking about last year.

    People want cheap as possible and easy as possible.
    Never going to happen in a Ni-Fe Land that lasts 50 to 100 years.
    Or after some real good 'shine' did the Ni-Fe cells actually last over 1000 years

    Bill Blake

    Leave a comment:


  • tandrews
    replied
    Since this is "the web" I'm not going to feel bad about fraying a thread since it *is* cross linked.
    The reason I started that second link is that I am interested, well curious anyway.
    If you have tidbits, even beef jerky old chewy ones, they are welcome there.
    You decide when the time is right, since now works for me.

    I've come to my own conclusion that Manufacturers use dirty KOH and dirty LIOH just because it's the fiscally responsible way to offer it.
    Hell, I can't fault them since I did the same thing DIY and would suggest it's just the way to do it.
    I use the term "dirty" interchangeably with "inexpensive". Lab(edit: should read reagant woopsy) grade stuff is 10x the cost and even it isn't pure.
    Why send a batch sheet to a battery customer when it's none of their "direct" business after all.

    What remains open in that thread is:
    " Is it possible to extend/restore KOH electrolyte life/function by addition of LIOH (beyond primary mix/add, end of electrolyte recommended life), or is that just a waste of money?"
    It would save effort, time, safety, which is worth something too, but until someone does it or reports they have with success, who knows?
    Scope includes NiCads as well, which have that nasty waste issue attached.
    I bet this forum membership fee that fresh mixed, out of the box battery flake would fail a carbonate test based on what was in the flake alone.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sundetective
    replied
    LiOH.H2O and Nickel Iron Power

    Originally posted by tandrews View Post
    Some data to your LIOH carbonate point here:
    http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...rge-efficiency
    Edit: actual batch data in this thread:
    http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...ed-NCads/page3
    You (tandrews) said "I'm hoping with this thread to pin down actual function of lithium hydroxide in an NiFe cell, and expose some of the
    rationale for the amount added and it's cost effectiveness.
    I welcome comments with citation over uninformed (however assertive and determined) opinions based on heresay or unscientific assumptions
    that the value of this thread remain useful for others."

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    That's not a part of a lot of the real Ni-Fe world when I try to get answers. The Chinese know but getting anything in writing out of them is
    going to be real difficult because it's like we told the man to his face.

    They remind us of some fellow up in 'the holler' that believes in keeping them

    'dumb, barefoot and pregnant'.

    They (THE BUILDERS) are the ones with your Textbooks but you don't get any of it.
    If it's not someone that can dazzle the man a tad - they won't tell you a damn thing.

    Yes we talked about LiOH with the Chinese Battery Chemist PhD twice and both times what he wouldn't answer or just slipped out
    was just as important as what was officially presented.

    Another knowledge source for me became disabled (from out of nowhere) and is hurting.
    He threatens that he's going to write a book about Home Power which will include batteries.
    Out of respect for his wisdom and wishes there are Links that I can't post.
    Plus with Changhong seeming to be in a shake-up mode lately who knows what's really going on.
    No one in this thing is an enemy. In a strange way there is a certain level of cooperation between the players
    (if you can find it). (I'm still waiting on that Test Book)

    When the time is right if the interest is still there I will post some tidbits about the Lithium Hydroxide.
    However if it all came from a nice dusty Library Shelf you would have already had it.

    With this twisted, crazy, pack of Wives' Tales, mysterious subject - any knowledge was good knowledge so I tooks what I could get.

    All I want out of it is a laugh once in a while and the Chinese saying: 'Who was that crazy old masked man'.

    The battery chemist was talking about watching the Fieldlines Forum. We told him that's old news.
    Watch SolarPanelTalk.
    I figure that he does. Please chime in once in a while.


    Bill Blake

    Leave a comment:


  • tandrews
    replied
    Some data to your LIOH carbonate point here:
    http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...rge-efficiency
    Edit: actual batch data in this thread:
    http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...ed-NCads/page3

    Leave a comment:


  • Sundetective
    replied
    Nickel Night and Solar Blivet Charging of Ni-Fe Cells

    Originally posted by Sunking View Post
    Wiil Bill if I am reading the market correctly Nickel Silver today is around $7.00/Ounce. But here is something interesting for you smart folks the US Nickel coin today has .04oz of nickel and 1.3 oz of copper making the coin true value of about 13 cents. So if you melt it down and sell for scrap is just over a 100% return on investment for a days work.

    Anyway Bill if the battery is 20% by weight Nickel and a cell weighs 100 pounds 20 pounds of nickel silver raw cost is $7 x 320 oz = $2240.
    Sunking, Here is Nickel by the pound.

    http://www.kitcometals.com/charts/ni...cal_large.html

    When I was a kid a lot of things were a nickel. My Dad used to take me with him to the local Pub
    where the beer and soda was a nickel.

    The TN800 Cell that I kind of like the looks of has a dry weight of around 88 pounds.
    The reservoir runs between 16.5 liters (TN Series) to 17.2 Liters (NF-S Series) per cell.

    If my theory is correct the size of the reservoir and the quality / amount of the Lithium Hydroxide
    is going to rival the importance of the Nickel price.

    They may have come to realize (in China) that they really are sitting on a powder keg if they tested their
    LiOH for CO2 like we told them to.
    I doubt people need to wait very long to test for Carbonate build-up in their Nickel Iron battery electrolyte.

    The Fox may have been been locked in with the chickens the day the Ni-Fe coop got nailed shut.

    Then trying to desperately squeeze 8 hours worth of charge into a 4 hour time slot (equivalent) turned the poor
    cells into overly aggressive Oxygen generators which adds to the problem.

    The whole battery game needs to be re-evaluated when playing with Solar Blivet Charging.
    They need an old masked man.

    Bill Blake

    Leave a comment:


  • Sunking
    replied
    Wiil Bill if I am reading the market correctly Nickel Silver today is around $7.00/Ounce. But here is something interesting for you smart folks the US Nickel coin today has .04oz of nickel and 1.3 oz of copper making the coin true value of about 13 cents. So if you melt it down and sell for scrap is just over a 100% return on investment for a days work.

    Anyway Bill if the battery is 20% by weight Nickel and a cell weighs 100 pounds 20 pounds of nickel silver raw cost is $7 x 320 oz = $2240.

    Leave a comment:

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