Nickel Iron Battery - NREL Test Results

[Mike90250]

I realize this is an ancient thread, but it came up on a search and seemed worthy of a reply.

First off, a potential real world partial solution for the spectacular bubbling is a load dump. Wastes juice? Well yeah. But it only wastes the juice you are not "dumping" through your inverter, or on other low voltage loads. I run this arrangement in conjunction with solar on a 48v lead antimony (lead acid) battery bank and it dramatically cut down watering and bubbling woes, while allowing borderline inputs. Why would I take this approach? So that batteries can maintain an adequate charge in winter, but not boil and froth during summer. ........

Welcome. I think.
For a first post, and semi-technical attempt at content, it's not very coherent, and to play further, you are going to have to step up your game. If you are going to throw big words around, at least get them in the right order. I'll ignore the latter half of your post, till I understand this first part.

First, I'm running a large NiFe bank. NiFe are notorious for gassing and electrolyzing the water, it's the nature of the chemistry. i have my controller (s) setpoints configured properly and am at the low voltage side of the limits. If I follow your suggestion and added a "load dump", all that would do is lower the charge voltage and prevent the cells from fully charging. That saves water but wastes battery capacity. I actually have "summer" and "winter" set points for my controllers, summer is a bit lower voltage, shorter absorb time, winter I jack the voltage up and longer absorb times to more fully utilize the available solar. Water is cheaper than diesel (for now).

So maybe I've misunderstood how you utilize a "load dump" and I welcome a chance to hear what you have it doing.
What do you use for a charge controller? Size of PV array? Battery bank size ? You can use the signature line to describe your system.

[totalloser]

I realize this is an ancient thread, but it came up on a search and seemed worthy of a reply.

First off, a potential real world partial solution for the spectacular bubbling is a load dump. Wastes juice? Well yeah. But it only wastes the juice you are not "dumping" through your inverter, or on other low voltage loads. I run this arrangement in conjunction with solar on a 48v lead antimony (lead acid) battery bank and it dramatically cut down watering and bubbling woes, while allowing borderline inputs. Why would I take this approach? So that batteries can maintain an adequate charge in winter, but not boil and froth during summer. Theoretically the MPPT charge controller should keep things under control, but in reality it did not. Yes I'm a redneck, so "less than nice people" can save themselves the trouble. But it works *very* well for me. And I suspect this approach would help quite a bit with NiFe batteries as well, and for similar reasons- and most dumps are programmable.

On to NiFe: First off, most commercial products essentially capitalize on industrial waste shavings for the media. Which is fine, whatever. Once plated it's no problem. But the other way is with stacks of flat steel alternating plated. Yeah, composition is proprietary, but price nickel costs and the truth is obvious. Wanna make your own? Nickel acetate costs cure that pipe dream. Right until you realize that you can make your own with any random chunk of pure nickel, and a few jugs of vinegar.

I can already hear all the naysaying and negativity. The internet is the new road rage. But I have no intention of playing with the trolls. Oh, excuse me, experts.

But for those who are curious and might consider it: A 6 gallon bucket full of home made plates gets in the range of 100+ AH "on paper" depending on durability vs capacity. Cut sheets 7 shortways (7x48) then to 7x24. Cut in half again at a 60ish (but consistent) degree angle. Drill "ears" from angle to tie plates together with SS washers for spacers, and isolate opposing plates with KOH resistant fabric. Vertical SS straps from plate tie bolts go through slots in the lid to hook wires. Push a hot section of strap stock through a fixture to melt the pass through slots dead ended against a block of wood. Do the same for watering/vents. I am fond of using auto water valves- Get a big jug and drill a hole in the cap to match the watering tubing (can't remember what size off the top of my head) but this arrangement also eliminates the need for a more complicated vent/fill port. And makes battery watering a snap. Jug sits alongside cells, so no leaks, then raise upside down and all the cells get topped.

Having said all that, and since LFP has been mentioned: The key to long life lithium is keeping charge rate in the middle of the road so to speak. Current CC's don't do this AFAIK. Nickel hydrogen batteries last essentially forever- cycles be damned. But the things that make such exotic tech what it is, may soon be coming to more attainable NiMH cells. Lab proven, but hasn't left the lab yet. If the tech is scalable, lithium will be irrelevant. And the Japanese just discovered a rare earth ore deposit of epic scale, making "shipstone" quality NiMH tech basically limitless. Better even than a solid state lithium battery- which so far remains elusive. IE *everlasting* holy grail NiMH cells have been *built*. If they make it past the lab and into production all of this may be moot.

[Murby]

Nope, Tesla does not impress me one little bit.

Which part specifically? I'm totally open so please feel free to drag them through the dirt.. I have no preconceived notions one way or the other...

[Sunking]

They've made some big improvements this year.... Does that information change your opinion in any way?

Nope, Tesla does not impress me one little bit.

[Murby]

Don't do that and waste your money. Lithium is not ready yet. Consider a good Industrial Lead Acid Battery like Trojan IND line up or Rolls 5000 Series. They cost less than LFP and last longer.

All you got to do is look at the warrant. At best you may get 2 year warranty on LFP batteries. Trojan and you are looking at 8 years. Not even close.

Trojan (13.5 kWh) and Sonnen Lithium batteries are warranted to produce 70% at 10 years or something like 5000 cycles.... There is also no maintenance and the batteries include a 120/240 split phase inverter rated at something like 5000 or 7000 watts.
One must consider what it costs to purchase an equivalent inverter, charge controller, and battery bank and then put them all together.. With the Tesla, its all one unit.

And while I'm still getting my information straightened out, I think the Tesla battery can accept AC or DC input to charge. As for the Tesla, they are certified to work with SMA inverters, which is what I have.. but I'm still working on figuring out exactly what that means.. Does it mean they can override the anti-islanding feature like the SMA Sunny Island or the Schneider Conext units? Still working on it.

They've made some big improvements this year.... Does that information change your opinion in any way?

[Sunking]

Ya, since reading this thread, I'm starting to lean towards the Lithium Ion... Looking at LG, Sonnen and Tesla... What's cool is that even though the batteries seem to be more expensive, they also come with their own 240 split phase inverters built in...

Don't do that and waste your money. Lithium is not ready yet. Consider a good Industrial Lead Acid Battery like Trojan IND line up or Rolls 5000 Series. They cost less than LFP and last longer.

All you got to do is look at the warrant. At best you may get 2 year warranty on LFP batteries. Trojan and you are looking at 8 years. Not even close.

[Mike90250]

That's because the batteries are so touchy, it's real easy to fry them.

[Murby]

Ya, since reading this thread, I'm starting to lean towards the Lithium Ion... Looking at LG, Sonnen and Tesla... What's cool is that even though the batteries seem to be more expensive, they also come with their own 240 split phase inverters built in...

[Mike90250]

Iron edison, is a brand, stamped onto chi-dong <sp> cells

NiFe is Inefficient. You will need 30-40% more PV to charge them
They chew through a lot of water, electrolizing it My 40 ea, 800ah cells go through about 8 or 9 gallons a month. The sound of a room full of bubbling cells is just the sound of nightime power
They have high internal resistance, so you need a larger bank to supply surges and avoid inverter cutoffs from voltage sag
And I think this is the last year I can get by on the electrolyte. Going to have to replace it next summer. really hard to store the spare chemical, you mix at time of using.
Having used them the last 6 or so years, the only factor to use them is the ability to idle at any state without damage, LFP cells can do that, Not sure yet on their overall lifetime, but I might steer you toward that tech, seems to be starting to be more acceptance of it.

[Murby]

Still living off them. They are working fine, drinking plenty of distilled and providing ballast so the building won't blow away !

LFP was not an option when I purchased them. I need something that can take 4-15 days of limited recharging in the winter rain & gloom. Lead acid banks die around New Years around here, the poor sun finally kills the weak ones off every season. Some folks here just run the genset 24/7 in the winter.

So you're happy with them? How about a rating (1= poor to 10= great) ?? How much do they drink?
You mentioned they are loud from all the hissing action.. is that a problem? How loud?

I'm considering dropping some cash on a battery bank.... 1/4 of my needs are practical, the other 3/4 are just the prepper in me wanting something to fall back on if/when SHTF.... I'm the kind of person who buys leather, stainless and real wood.. The kind of person who uses three screws instead of two... and it seems to me the NiFe batteries are superior if one has the extra cash to throw at them.. I just want to make sure I'm not throwing my money at an over advertised product with a clever sales pitch.

Do you have the Iron Edison battery brand or some other brand? If you could go back, would you still choose the NiFe batteries?

Thanks!

[Mike90250]

Still living off them. They are working fine, drinking plenty of distilled and providing ballast so the building won't blow away !

LFP was not an option when I purchased them. I need something that can take 4-15 days of limited recharging in the winter rain & gloom. Lead acid banks die around New Years around here, the poor sun finally kills the weak ones off every season. Some folks here just run the genset 24/7 in the winter.

[Murby]

So here we are in 2017..

I'd like to here from Mike90250.. how are those NiFe batteries doing? What is your opinion on them after a few years now?

[russ]

If you want some cheap entertainment read the jive put out in the name of

Sandia National Labs at mostly

So we should believe Bill the BS'er that can't even formulate an intelligent, readable sentence?

Bill - Either do better or get lost.

[Mike90250]

Don't take this wrong; But how is that working out for you?

just working, going to do an electrolyte change in the spring. The tough part is the inverter's integral charger won't quite go to high enough voltage (64v, I want 67v). And I'm not able to find a 67v power source that is not 3 phase, or actually set for 75V. When I don't have sun, I can't get a full charge, just a partial, so I have to run the genset 2x a day

[Sundetective]

If you want some cheap entertainment read the jive put out in the name of

Sandia National Labs at mostly

Encell Technology expense.

Think it was this August that the 'Big Sandia / Encell Technology
Report' came out.
The new Encell Technology Patents are out recently as well.

Doubt there is enough interest for full details.

Let old Bill just let "da good ole boys' know that I would take
The time to take all those jive artists on -
all at the same time

If only all their Doctors and Presidents dared.
It's terrible how stupid they must feel that we all are.
Old Bill is intebulaant - not dungb

Bill Blake