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US Gov't report on the use of Ni-Fe cells in vehicles

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  • US Gov't report on the use of Ni-Fe cells in vehicles

    Please see attached.

    Ni-Fe and Cars -- Govt Study.pdf

  • #2
    Several nickel/iron (Ni/Fe) batteries were designed and procured from Eagle-Picher
    Industries (EPI) for evaluation and use in an advanced dual shaft electric propulsion (DSEP) vehicle developed by Eaton Corporation. As part this program, two individual 5-cell Ni/Fe modules and a 140-cell (28-module) battery pack were delivered to Argonne in March 1986 for evaluation. The objective of this activity was to characterize the performance of the Eaton/EPI Ni/Fe battery technology for DSEP applications.

    Performance characterization tests were conducted on the two modules and life testing performed on the battery pack. Module performance testing was completed in February 1987. Each module retained ~90% of its initial 180-Ah capacity after completing about 215 cycles of operation (--163Ah/970 Wh).

    Life characterization tests for the 28-kWh DSEP battery pack were conducted with driving profile discharges. A 1377-s power profile that represented the battery load in a DSEP vehicle undergoing a Federal Urban Driving Schedule (FUDS) was used. After the battery pack accumulated 502 cycles in October 1987, testing Was suspended for three months. Testing was resumed in January 1988 with the same driving profile discharge.

    Comment


    • #3
      NiFe is a pretty poor choice for EV applications because of the low energy density and high internal resistances. Sounds like another complete waste of tax payer money which they already know the answer too.

      For the same amount of initial cost per Kwh and weight there are commercial LFP that will get you roughly 5 times the range, and not limited to such high internal resistance which means much higher charge and discharge rates. LFP batteries have around 200 wh/kg, vs 40 wh/kg for Nife. Watt hour cost are roughly the same at $600 to $800/Kwh. The newer LFP batteries made by A123 Systems have a 10,000 cycle life which will outlive the vehicle.

      Sorry but this is just a silly waste of money and resources, NiFe doe snot stand a chance in the EV market as LFP just runs circles around them.
      MSEE, PE

      Comment


      • #4
        Why the hate? Do you need a hug?

        Are you an aggressive driver? I bet that you have a lot of road rage.

        You may have seen that many people are here for the constructive sharing of information.

        You put a lot of effort into flaming other peoples comments, and offer very little (if any) constructive help.

        You are welcome to join in the conversation, but kindly realize we are all people who are here to learn from one another.

        Your negative attitude has, without a doubt, scared away a large number of people who would have otherwise posted legitimate questions.



        Originally posted by Sunking View Post
        NiFe is a pretty poor choice for EV applications because of the low energy density and high internal resistances. Sounds like another complete waste of tax payer money which they already know the answer too.

        For the same amount of initial cost per Kwh and weight there are commercial LFP that will get you roughly 5 times the range, and not limited to such high internal resistance which means much higher charge and discharge rates. LFP batteries have around 200 wh/kg, vs 40 wh/kg for Nife. Watt hour cost are roughly the same at $600 to $800/Kwh. The newer LFP batteries made by A123 Systems have a 10,000 cycle life which will outlive the vehicle.

        Sorry but this is just a silly waste of money and resources, NiFe doe snot stand a chance in the EV market as LFP just runs circles around them.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Iron Bran View Post
          Are you an aggressive driver? I bet that you have a lot of road rage.
          YOU NEED TO DISCLOSE YOU HAVE A VESTED INTEREST IN NiFe and promoting for your personal gain. I use simple public information backed up with facts and numbers.

          Facts:
          • NiFe batteries cost per Wh are about the same as LFP @ about $0.50/wh. Fwiw 4 to 5 times higher than lead acid technology.
          • NiFe energy density is 1/5 to 1/4 that of LFP. That means pound for pound it takes 4 to 5 times more weight for NiFe to equal LFP. Weight is the killer for any vehicle, it is not hard to understand.
          • NiFe has high internal resistance compared to LFP and Lead Acid. What this means to a layman is it cannot be charge quickly with an efficiency average of 60%. Compared to LFP is 90% and 80% of lead acid. It also means it cannot deliver the high discharge current rates a EV needs without significant voltage drop.


          I am not the only one who you have problems with you. Google your username and you pop up on many forums. In each forum you have the same critique from professionals. It is nothing new 4 U.

          So if the truth hurts, deal with it.
          MSEE, PE

          Comment


          • #6
            > Are you an aggressive driver? ......

            Look at that swing in the avatar, about as aggressive as they come.

            OK, it stops now. No name calling, or profiling.

            Sure Sunking does not mince words, and is harsh. But you can't call names. And if I see him calling names/pigeonholing I'll tell him to stop too. (listening Sunking?)

            Illegitimi non carborundum
            Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
            || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
            || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

            solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
            gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Iron Bran View Post
              Please see attached.

              [ATTACH]1094[/ATTACH]US Gov't report on the use of Ni-Fe cells in vehicles
              Uh, not a good review on page 33
              Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
              || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
              || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

              solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
              gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
                > Are you an aggressive driver? ......

                Look at that swing in the avatar, about as aggressive as they come.
                With a 4 handicap I say drill baby drill. Want to play for money?

                Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
                OK, it stops now. No name calling, or profiling.
                No name calling on my part. Just myth busting with known facts. Iron Bran does not have the scientific facts on his side as you have pointed out Mike.
                MSEE, PE

                Comment


                • #9
                  Eagle Picher battery info

                  The batteries referred to in this report are seen below:

                  Eagle Picher - 6V NiFe Battery flyer.pdf

                  The interesting thing about this BATTERY is that its a BATTERY, not just a CELL.

                  I am all about new technologies, in fact I was reading about the development of the molten Sodium Sulfur batteries by Ford / GM for the EV1. I actually just met the gentleman who designed the drivetrain on the EV1. He was excited to hear about our research with Ni-Fe.

                  There are a lot of people out there who have contacted me about building an American made ni-fe battery. A true New Edison battery. This would be great, right??

                  By sharing all this information, I am hoping to inspire people to get interested, learn from others, and come up with great new ideas. Disposable batteries are terrible in so many ways. The Lithium Ion battery didn't even exist on the market prior to 1990. Lead-acid is not the answer, and every other chemistry has drawbacks. The more we know, the more we can selectively choose the best option for each project as the market for RE grows in the coming yrs.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Sweet Van

                    Updated EP flyer attached

                    eagle-picher.pdf

                    Sweet van

                    Sweet Van.jpg

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Iron Bran View Post
                      I am all about new technologies.
                      That is good embrace it.

                      Originally posted by Iron Bran View Post
                      There are a lot of people out there who have contacted me about building an American made ni-fe battery.
                      That is because you have vested interest, it is no secret. American companies gave up on it in the mid 70's


                      Originally posted by Iron Bran View Post
                      The Lithium Ion battery didn't even exist on the market prior to 1990. Lead-acid is not the answer, and every other chemistry has drawbacks. The more we know, the more we can selectively choose the best option for each project as the market for RE grows in the coming yrs.
                      Not a fact. Lithium metal primary batteries hit the market in 1975 manufactured by Exxon which had draw backs because lithium metal is toxic. Lithium Ion rechargeable secondary batteries were introduced by the former Bell Labs in 1981 in the BRICK PHONE. Lithium Ion is not toxic and approved in landfills.

                      NiFe was patented by Edison Electric in 1906 for use in Electric Vehicle. It failed. Edison never renewed the patent protection, and all USA production ceased in the mid 70's when Excide battery gave up.

                      Here are the facts. LFP is where all the research money is going by all major battery manufactures because it has the best possibilities. NiFe is a mature technology like a CRT screen where there is no where to go further. Nickel metal is expensive, energy density is low, and efficiency is low, the technology has gone as far as it can go. Lithium technology has lapped NiFe 4 times and has only got started. That is where the smart money is going.

                      NiFe had its place in the rail road and mining industry years ago when cost and efficiency was not an issue. But like Grandpa his time has passed and time to go enjoy retirement.
                      MSEE, PE

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hi Iron Bran - Nothing wrong with you putting your viewpoint forward.

                        It is wrong for you to get upset because someone does not agree with your conclusions and says so.

                        These batteries for EV use - that is silly and you should be willing to admit the point. Not one manufacturer is using them and do you think they have not studied the technology. The one clown from EV1 means nothing.

                        For stationary use where the charging and discharging profile is acceptable and practical may be a niche for them.

                        Rather than tilt windmills I really suggest you stick with what is most practical.

                        Russ
                        [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by russ View Post
                          Not one manufacturer is using them and do you think they have not studied the technology.
                          But you are wrong Russ. All EV's used NiFe batteries in the early 1900's. They failed because of the energy density, weight, and high internal resistance. The EV's could only go around 10 to 20 miles on a charge and were quite slow and could not climb relatively shallow terrain.

                          Understanding Energy Density is not a hard thing to grasp if you think of it like Miles Per Gallon. With batteries Energy Density is measured watt hours per unit of weight and expressed as Wh/Kg (watt hours / kilogram) NiFe batteries energy density is around 30 Wh/Kg, Lead Acid 45 Wh/Kg. the new LiFePO4 from A123 Systems is 414 Wh/Kg. You do not have to be an Engineer to understand the lithium batteries pound for pound give you 11 times more range. Throw in the watt hour cost is roughly the same for both Litium and Nife makes it a no brainer choice. No manufacture in their right mind would use NiFe batteries in an EV. I know some DIY EV builders use NiFe, but that is only because they got them free or at salvage prices.

                          So here would be a real life example with the following assumptions EV efficiency 200 Wh/mile, 300 Kg battery.
                          • Expected NiFe range = [30 Wh/Kg * 300 Kg] / 200 Wh/mile = 45 miles

                          • Expected LiFePO4 range = [414 Wh/Kg * 300 Kg] / 200 Wh/mile = 600 miles

                          Which one would you build with, and which one would consumers want? There is one more catch. To recharge the NiFe is going to take 8 hours or more to recharge, the new LFP have a C4 charge rate which means if you have the source power can be fully recharged in 20 minutes.

                          There is no contest. NiFe is a mature technology with nowhere else to go. LFP batteries are an infant technology and have made 4 quantum leaps in 7 years going from an energy density of 100 Wh/Kg to over 400 Wh/Kg in 7 short years. NiFe costs are fixed by the semi-precious metal of Nickel. LFP prices have dropped 70% in 10 years of development and still going down as the manufacturing process is improved and stream lined.

                          So Iron Bran whether you like it or not, any public money being spent on NiFe is a waste of time and money. You cannot win this debate, the numbers are real and factual anyone can look up for themselves.
                          MSEE, PE

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Info on C5 batts

                            I just posted the report so people could read it. Its from 1980-something. Like a blast from the past, man!

                            Check out Paul talk about his battery pack. Battery swap stations are cool, too. "Its not range anxiety, its freedom anxiety" Renault and some others are already on board, testing using taxis in downtown areas. How this addresses range / freedom anxiety, I dont know. Did you know there used to be a network of EV charging stations way back in the 1900's??? Now we are working on the exact same thing. Its like history repeating itself...




                            You are generally right about the density, so don't freak out.

                            This is just information for you to enjoy reading. No more, no less. I enjoy the open exchange of information. Take care!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Freedom Anxiety (sounds better than Freedom Fries)

                              Thanks for the calcs, you are right on when using your assumptions. The govt used a couple different scenarios, including with and without regenerative braking. Higher C batteries will allow for even more regen.



                              Projected Ranges.jpg




                              Originally posted by Sunking View Post
                              So here would be a real life example with the following assumptions EV efficiency 200 Wh/mile, 300 Kg battery.
                              • Expected NiFe range = [30 Wh/Kg * 300 Kg] / 200 Wh/mile = 45 miles

                              • Expected LiFePO4 range = [414 Wh/Kg * 300 Kg] / 200 Wh/mile = 600 miles

                              Comment

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