Nickel Iron vs. Lead Acid - Off Grid battery debate

[Mike90250]

"hand made" Edison batteries - well, it's getting the materials, perf nickle and steel, and jamming them into jars.... Edison had a machine shop, and a factory to do it. For household size, it's beyond what I was willing to jump into. Pb batteries don't have a good shelf life, but maybe with a nitrogen purge, I could store them. So, I'm my own guinea pig. At least I'm not Dr. Moreau and won't spread hybrids around. (or GMO's)

of course, the attached chart is valuing my time at some $, but I'm not paying myself to water my own batteries. (hey, maybe that's a tax writeoff )

[Offgrid]

Mike,for sure there are a lot of negatives and please forgive my niave question but for all the money you spending,couldnt you have bought a lifetime of FLA and then some and still have change?

Now dont get me wrong! a friend actually mentioned the topic of NiFe batteries and said we should make our own and it really sounds cool so I am really interested but I have had my time wasted with DIY panels....making your own NiFe batteries just seems like more wasted time and a lot of danger? Would you agree?

[Iron Bran]

Pick up battery book?

I really like the opening line;

"It is quite possible that the man who has taught us to put up electricity in bottles has accomplished greater things than any other inventor who has yet appeared."

-- The New York Times, June 11, 1881


http://www.amazon.com/Bottled-Lightn...0701346&sr=1-1

Mike, it sounds like you may have some vacation coming up. Why not pick up a fun battery book??? =)

All the best,
Bran

[Sunking]

For those looking for Nickel Iron battery prices to include in your calculations, this may be a good resource.

http://ironedison.com/store

You cannot promote your products or web site here.

[Iron Bran]

Iron Edison Battery Store

For those looking for Nickel Iron battery prices to include in your calculations, there may be some updated resources online.

[Mike90250]

They are expen$ive. All that nickel, they may as well be $tainless$teel.
And they are not nearly as dense as the lead acid batteries. takes up about 4x the floor space in the battery room. And higher internal resistance, so more loss, and less surge capacity, so next size up. And a bit less efficient (70% vs Pb 80%) Ouch. So it's basicaly fear of not being able to get any batteries 10 years from now. I'm buying my battery changes NOW, instead of spreading it out over 40 years of replacements (4 sets) of lead acid.

and I now hear they are hung up in customs waiting for inspection. And my vacation time is already scheduled at my company, so I go to the ranch and wait. Plenty of other things to do.

[Offgrid]

Mike.How is you NiFe bank treating you?

Just curious...A battery that lasts so long and can be completely drained with out the ill effects.Sounded nice.So was just wondering how its going and if you miss your FLA's. (Dont even start with me Sunking) ;P

[Iron Bran]

Bottled Lightning

link ? source ?

I really like the opening line;

"It is quite possible that the man who has taught us to put up electricity in bottles has accomplished greater things than any other inventor who has yet appeared."

-- The New York Times, June 11, 1881

http://www.amazon.com/Bottled-Lightning-Superbatteries-Electric-Lithium/dp/0809030535/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1310701346&sr=1-1

[Mike90250]

Have you read Bottled Lightning? A must-read for Ni-Fe fans!

link ? source ?

[Iron Bran]

List of Ni-Fe resources

Historical info and retail sales of ni-fe batteries:

http://ironedison.com

US Patent No. 827,297
Alkaline Battery
Patented July 31, 1906
by Thomas Alva Edison
( .PDF )
Download@FreePatentsOnline

http://tinyurl.com/nmskgz

Nickel-Iron Battery
From Wikipedia

http://tinyurl.com/lc7js

NiFe Safety Lamp
@Mine-Explorer

http://tinyurl.com/lrkf57

Charging Caving Batteries
Cambridge Underground 1979
pages 51-55
@Cambridge University Caving Club Archive Site

http://tinyurl.com/lm9zur

The Edison Alkaline Storage Battery
by the Technical Staff of the
Edison Storage Battery Company, 1924.
Download@GoogleBooks

http://tinyurl.com/mussc7

Some Notes on the Edison
Nickel-Iron Storage Battery
by F.M. Davis

~ from :

Journal of the Western Society of Engineers,
Volume 9, Western Society of Engineers, 1904,
page 521.
Download@GoogleBooks

http://tinyurl.com/lelxx7

Edison's Struggle to
Build a Better Battery

~ from :

Popular Science Magazine
December 1959, page 132.
Preview@GoogleBooks

http://tinyurl.com/mdqbov

Nickel/Iron Batteries

~ from :

Electrochemical Power Sources :
Primary and Secondary Batteries
by Monty Barak
IET, 1980.
Preview@GoogleBooks

http://tinyurl.com/kqpj23

The Nickel-Iron Battery :
Another Enduring Tough One

~ from :

Electric Motors & Control Techniques
by Irving M. Gottlieb
McGraw-Hill Professional, 1994,
pages 251-253.
Preview@GoogleBooks

http://tinyurl.com/lwq24a

Nickel-Iron Batteries

~ from :

Understanding Batteries
by David Anthony James Rand
Royal Society of Chemistry, 2001,
page 131.
Preview@GoogleBooks

http://tinyurl.com/mb22rv

Nickel-Iron Batteries

~ from :

The Principles Underlying Radio Communication
Issue 40 of United States Army Signal Corps
Radio Communication Pamphlet
by Richard Sheldon Ould,
Government Printing Office, 1922,
page 69.
Download@GoogleBooks

http://tinyurl.com/lrhry2

The Edison Battery

~ from :

A Course in Electrical Engineering,
Volume 1, by Chester Laurens Dawes,
McGraw-Hill Book Company, 1920,
page 115.
Download@GoogleBooks

http://tinyurl.com/kwqbmg

Characteristics of Nickel-Iron Cells

~ from :

Storage Batteries :
A Handbook on the Storage Battery
for Practical Men
by Christian John Hawkes
The William Hood Dunwoody
Industrial Institute, 1920,
page 39.
Download@GoogleBooks

http://tinyurl.com/mhl38o

Nickel-Iron Technology

~ from :

Materials Technology in the
Near-Term Energy Program
U.S. National Research Council
National Academy of Science, 1974,
page 128.
Download@GoogleBooks

http://tinyurl.com/npm4to

Iron/Nickel Oxide Battery

~ from :

Assessment of Research Needs
for Advanced Battery Systems
U.S. National Research Council
National Academy Press, 1982,
page 31.
Download@GoogleBooks

http://tinyurl.com/nfcvex

The Nickel-Iron or Edison Storage Cell

~ from :

Practical Electricity
by Terrell Croft
McGraw-Hill, 1917,
page 263.
Download@GoogleBooks

http://tinyurl.com/l93lx9

Nickel-Iron Alkali Cell

~ from :

Applied Electricity for Practical Men
by Arthur John Rowland
McGraw-Hill, 1916,
page 301.
Download@GoogleBooks

http://tinyurl.com/msaw3x

Nickel-Iron-Alkaline Cell

~ from :

Electricity and Magnetism
International Textbook Co., 1914,
page 37.
Download@GoogleBooks

http://tinyurl.com/nn9o5b

[Iron Bran]

Amazing wiki by Gregot

Truly impressive work you have done. I stumbled across your work the other day. Thank you for your efforts.

Have you read Bottled Lightning? A must-read for Ni-Fe fans!

Hello everyone,

I am from the project at http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Nickel-iron_batteries . I know the page is pretty messy right now and I intend to clean it up when I get the chance.

You can see in the related pages section that I am thinking of making a spreadsheet which would calculate the lowest cost system that will meet the criteria of fully meeting all load demands except on 3 for an average of 1 day per 5 years. That is a good way to design a system.

Then I would swap in nife batteries for lead acid and calculate the total cost of ownership (including maintenance and replacement) at the 5 and 10 year mark. A good way to compare the 2 technologies financially.

[russ]

Hi Greg - Welcome to Solar Panel Talk!

Looks impressive to me - of course my knowledge of batteries is very limited!

Good detailed and correct information is a real help to people looking to learn what is really available.

Good start and I wish you success!

Russ

[gregor88]

Also, if anyone has any good documents on Nife batteries, can you add them to the library section?

[gregor88]

Hello everyone,

I am from the project at http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Nickel-iron_batteries . I know the page is pretty messy right now and I intend to clean it up when I get the chance.

You can see in the related pages section that I am thinking of making a spreadsheet which would calculate the lowest cost system that will meet the criteria of fully meeting all load demands except on 3 for an average of 1 day per 5 years. That is a good way to design a system.

Then I would swap in nife batteries for lead acid and calculate the total cost of ownership (including maintenance and replacement) at the 5 and 10 year mark. A good way to compare the 2 technologies financially.

[Iron Bran]

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