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  • Originally posted by Brian1 View Post
    Mike,
    I would be interested in more information about the test equipment you have.
    50g/liter is .05%. Seems the best way to avoid this problem is to make this a closed system that doesn't allow any outside gasses in at all and also to use water purer than distilled. I would think that recombiners on each of the cells to combine the hydrogen and oxygen back into water. This would also solve the watering issue also as almost all of the hydrogen and oxygen would be recombined into water which would drop back into the cells. I was going to use platinum beads as a safety feature in my hydrogen generator. I would pass the hydrogen through the beads and any oxygen would combine with the hydrogen back into water and drop back into the process leaving only pure hydrogen pass on to storage.

    1st thought off the top of my head for this is containers of platinum beads on each of the vent/watering holes with tubes coming out the top and then joined together to collect anything that makes it passed the beads and provide for expansion due to temperature change and from there into a water sealed arrangement where water will be displaced and replaced as required. I would likely consider using the clear medical tubing I have used on other projects which has a conductive strip molded into it so it can be grounded to eliminate the chance of static sparks. I will have to investigate this gain since I was only having to insure it would work in an oxygen environment.
    More thought is required.
    Brian
    Platinum beads sound expensive.
    Mike: How many individual vent caps are there in your system?
    SunnyBoy 3000 US, 18 BP Solar 175B panels.

    Comment


    • When I was working on the hydrogen generator a place in NJ was selling platinum beads for this purpose at $80/lb.
      Brian

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Brian1 View Post
        Wow - that's cool. a Potassium Carbonate Refractometer. But nearly $400 smackers !! that would make my glassware and titration chemicals obsolete. Can it really be used on a variable density electrolyte (full or at refill mark) with some of the lithium in it ?

        I've got no way to get "purer than distilled" water here in the boonies. The DI water from the "water store" tests out to 0 ppm

        What I've understood about the watering systems, they are acid resistant, not base resistant. So in a couple years....... they fail. Same with the platinum cats. So I never wanted to invest in them. I've got 42 cells, with 1 vent each.

        I've thought of winemakers airlocks, but wonder if they will suck in air, as the batteries cool off, or if there is enough gas generation to prevent that - or a bladder to store reserve gas (at just the right explosive mix of H & o2)

        If I was in the "city" I'd consider a nitrogen purge with the bleed off of a cryogenic 160 liter LN2 cylinder. But then I'd be in the city and would not need the gas.
        Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
        || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
        || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

        solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
        gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

        Comment


        • Yeah it's pricey. I found it while searching and thought I'd show it anyway. Don't know if it would actually work for our purposes.

          The only way to get "purer than distilled" is to electrolyze water into hydrogen and oxygen and recombine. In the absence of a catalyst the only other way is to burn them together and capture the steam and condense it. Another source for platinum beads for catalyzer is catalytic converters from cars. It would take cleaning them really well but they can be cleaned and would work.

          I am not proposing a watering system. The part of watering systems that come in contact with the electrolyte is the valve that insures the proper fill level. That is likely the part that usually fails. I am proposing a way to collect the hydrogen and oxygen from the batteries and recombine them for clean water to refill the batteries with.

          I am not sure why platinum recombining beads would fail unless the electrolyte actually came in contact with them. I have to look into this more. I would like any information anyone has about failed recombiners that were used with alkali electrolyte.

          I thought of wine/beer makers air locks also. I don't think they would work. What I have in mind is something much bigger to allow for more movement without sucking in air.

          I was thinking of tanks of argon from welding supply. Probably much cheaper.
          Nitrogen is too close to Oxygen in weight and they mix too well. I think Argon is heavier.

          Again just thinking out loud here as I try to catch up.
          Brian

          Comment


          • The problem with platinum catalysts in vehicle use, as I understand it, is of course not the electrolyte but other elements present in the combustion gas mixture.
            In the case of lead acid batteries, I have seen manufacturer statements that the recombiner type caps do have a limited lifespan, but no clear mention of just what the limiting factor is.
            In any case, when batteries (either lead acid or NiFe) gas liberally some of the electrolyte is carried up by the gas bubbles and will get to the catalyst in the form of either an acid or alkali mist.
            SunnyBoy 3000 US, 18 BP Solar 175B panels.

            Comment


            • As to "de-airing" the resupply water, heating it up will reduce the dissolved gas caring capacity of water, which is why fish die if a lake warms up. So I'll try setting my DI water jugs out in the sun for a bit of solar heat before watering the batteries.
              Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
              || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
              || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

              solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
              gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

              Comment


              • Inetdog,
                I can see how the bubbles would carry electrolyte up to the caps. I think that means the catalyst beads need to be a farther above the liquid level than just where the caps are. I just checked and my caps are wet so I guess it does.
                That said, if the catalyst has a limited life then that is the way it is.
                Mike,
                Let me know how that works. I am interested.

                Brian
                [B]Mod note - please do not post your link without permission from Jason - there many parts of your site that are quite green but between useless and dangerous.

                For starters -
                1) Hydrogen - not a home toy except for fools and those with a death wish.
                2) Drain water heat exchanger - wrapping a copper tube around the outside of a pipe is the world's worst heat exchanger.
                3) The bird whacker you have for a wind turbine is useless in most situations.
                [/B]
                Last edited by russ; 06-24-2014, 02:50 AM.

                Comment


                • Checking in after being very busy. Yesterday was one year since I put my batteries into service. They have been working fine and I am happy so far.

                  This is also the first time I have seen the mod note attached to my last post.
                  Sorry if I posted a link that I wasn't supposed to. I don't remember but I must have and you must have seen it and I guess it was my website since you seem to have seen that.

                  I totally disagree with your assessment of hydrogen but that can be debated else where. I was taught to make hydrogen in 8th grade and had to do it to pass a test. I consider it no more dangerous than natural gas, gasoline or gunpowder. Handle it with knowledge and respect like the other 3 items I mentioned and you won't have a problem.

                  The drain water heat exchanger works absolutely great and of all the things I have tried or used in the alternate energy or efficiency world, that one works exactly as advertised. It cut my power usage for heating water by at least 30% and made an instant 100kWh/month difference in my power usage. Everything I claim about it on my page is actually absolutely true. It works even better now that I have, as of 3 weeks ago, replaced all of the pictured cast iron drain system with PVC which soaks much less heat and delivers hotter water to the exchanger. Intake temp of water is 62.5 and output temp is 84.9. Which would you rather heat? Say what you will, my data proves otherwise and so does my electric bill.

                  As for the "bird whacker", I have not seen a single dead bird yet in the entire time it has been up while in the last year I have found 3 dead birds in front of the store my wife works at from flying into the window. And while it should definitely be up higher (not happening until the township cooperates) and I am 3 miles from a class 3 wind zone, it does actually contribute to battery charging when there is wind. The reason I put it up was because I was originally told to put up a weather station for a year to see if it was worth putting up a turbine. The cheapest weather station with the capabilities needed was still more expensive than the turbine. I decided to just put up the turbine. It was a good exercise in engineering and installing a guyed turbine tower as well. I am not unhappy about that decision.

                  Brian

                  Comment


                  • OK I see that my website is posted at the bottom of my last post. I have tried to delete it from my profile without success. It appears I do not have permission to delete this or editing my profile does not work. I give you permission to delete this from my profile.

                    Comment


                    • OK I found it and deleted it.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Brian1 View Post
                        I totally disagree with your assessment of hydrogen but that can be debated else where. I was taught to make hydrogen in 8th grade and had to do it to pass a test. I consider it no more dangerous than natural gas, gasoline or gunpowder. Handle it with knowledge and respect like the other 3 items I mentioned and you won't have a problem.
                        [B]Actually hydrogen is safer than the other substances you mention - far more so than gunpowder or gasoline - however that is only if handled correctly and proper precautions are taken. In the hands of the average DIY type and expecially the HHO bunch it a bomb in waiting. I spent a lifetime making the stuff - we recirculated close to a million cubic meters per hour at the last plant complex I ran. [/B]

                        The drain water heat exchanger works absolutely great and of all the things I have tried or used in the alternate energy or efficiency world, that one works exactly as advertised. [B]

                        Baloney - you have no idea of heat transfer - especially low grade heat transfer. They are boat anchors and no more. The scummy water going through them will cause problems as well. That is unless one likes to take showers that are hours long - then a better method of conservation is to take shorter showers.
                        [/B]
                        As for the "bird whacker", I have not seen a single dead bird yet in the entire time it has been up while in the last year I have found 3 dead birds in front of the store my wife works at from flying into the window. And while it should definitely be up higher (not happening until the township cooperates) and I am 3 miles from a class 3 wind zone, it does actually contribute to battery charging when there is wind. The reason I put it up was because I was originally told to put up a weather station for a year to see if it was worth putting up a turbine. The cheapest weather station with the capabilities needed was still more expensive than the turbine. I decided to just put up the turbine. It was a good exercise in engineering and installing a guyed turbine tower as well. I am not unhappy about that decision.

                        [B]No mention of how few kWh it has put out - the small turbines will put out their nameplate rating under storm conditions only. There are a few locations where they can work but then as they are generally junk it takes more work to keep them running than they are worth. A turbine as cheap as you mentioned is definitely in the junk class.[/B]

                        Brian
                        [B]Comments in bold in the text[/B]
                        [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

                        Comment


                        • So we have concluded hydrogen is no more dangerous than any number of other things that can be found around the household and needs only to be handled with knowledge and respect like those other things.

                          You can cry baloney as much as you want. I am the one with data and a much lower power bill. The 50 year old piece of cast iron drain pipe I cut out of the drain system to install the exchanger was very clean inside. The exchanger was installed in 2005. 3 weeks ago I replaced all the cast iron drainage leading to the exchanger with PVC and took that opportunity to examine the inside of the exchanger. It was as clean as the pipe I removed to install it. There is no sludge buildup at all. I am not forcing you to get one. You have my permission to continue to throw energy and money down the drain.


                          As for the turbine, it has worked without fail when I needed it to and it has not been down since I put it up. Yeah it would take a 35MPH wind all the time to get the name plate rating out of it and no one wants to live in that environment. However, until I get some cooperation out of the township I am not doing anything more with that. It's just not worth putting out more money just to have them tell me I can't have it. If I get that cooperation I will probably build my next one from scratch.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Brian1 View Post
                            So we have concluded hydrogen is no more dangerous than any number of other things that can be found around the household and needs only to be handled with knowledge and respect like those other things.
                            [B]Not like all other things - a combustible gas handling culture or combustible liquid handling culture is not accidental. You and your HHO bunch are loonies of the first degree.[/B]

                            You can cry baloney as much as you want. I am the one with data and a much lower power bill. [B]Lots of chatter and nothing more[/B]


                            As for the turbine, it has worked without fail when I needed it to and it has not been down since I put it up. Yeah it would take a 35MPH wind all the time to get the name plate rating out of it and no one wants to live in that environment. However, until I get some cooperation out of the township I am not doing anything more with that. It's just not worth putting out more money just to have them tell me I can't have it. If I get that cooperation I will probably build my next one from scratch.
                            [B]Brian - This is not a site where all things declared to be green are automatically worshipped - you are spreading it thick.[/B]
                            [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

                            Comment


                            • New System Planning in the Works

                              I'm glad I found this site, and this thread. It has given me some serious food for thought. I've been reading posts here for the last hour or so.

                              My wife, and I purchased some land in West Virginia, USA. With any luck, we will start building an off-grid cob/strawbale house in the spring. There is power on the property. It would likely cost less to move the hookup to the new house, than it would to build an off-grid system. Even so, we're going to give it a go. Utility power goes off line often here anyhow, for anywhere from a day or two, to a week or two, when it goes out. We really do live way out in the sticks.

                              I am giving a NiFe bank serious thought, after reading about both the benefits, and drawbacks. I think the drawbacks, for what we are trying to do, are worth living with. Hopefully I won't think I've made a mistake a few years down the line. Many thanks to the folks who have used/are using them, who have posted their experiences.

                              Speaking of, has anyone given the cells that Iron Edison sells, manufactured by Encell a go?

                              Thanks much!

                              Cheers,
                              Daryle

                              Comment


                              • Daryle,

                                How many people have ever reported on their experience with the
                                Iron Edison, Changhong Batteries Ni-Fe cells ?

                                It's liable to be a while on the little Encell batteries with the huge claims.

                                If we listen to Changhong nobody is ever going to be able to really
                                Evaluate modern Ni-Fe batteries without Carbonate tests of the
                                Electrolyte AND Lead tests of the electrolyte.

                                It's in their new instruction book. It's always been there - just hidden by
                                The resellers in America.

                                Same goes with this new Encell electrolyte only more so and more tests.
                                They have a lot of new stuff for that 'Lye Type' electrolyte to gobble up.

                                Hopefully everything will be real cunnin however some people want
                                More than just promises. It's called Lab Reports.
                                Not much money if somebody isn't scared to get down to it.
                                I know of a wonderful Lab that does soil, manure, fertilizer, water, etc.
                                For many years - cheap. They have the best machines just waiting on them.

                                Bill Blake

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