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Nickel Iron vs. Lead Acid - Off Grid battery debate

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  • Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
    Ah, battery watering systems are a dime a dozen, for lead-acid banks. The NiFe banks, with the strong base electrolyte, eats the acid resistant fittings.
    I was just going to point that out Mike. Watering systems are made for acid, not alkaline.

    So Mike just poking some fun at you. How do you enjoy your new full time job after retiring?
    MSEE, PE

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sunking View Post
      .... How do you enjoy your new full time job after retiring?
      Chop wood, haul water. sleep. lather rinse repeat. (well, not for the 8 days of arctic freeze that hit us mid December. I lost several water manifolds, the city lost a couple fire hydrants) Retirement is not all that it's cracked up to be
      Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
      || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
      || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

      solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
      gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
        Chop wood, haul water. sleep. lather rinse repeat. (well, not for the 8 days of arctic freeze that hit us mid December. I lost several water manifolds, the city lost a couple fire hydrants) Retirement is not all that it's cracked up to be
        Hmmm. Maybe a warmer climate for retirement is not a bad idea.

        One reason I moved from New Jersey (besides the high taxes) was having to thaw out my pipes on those lovely cold days of -5 F we would sometimes get.

        Comment


        • Mike I take it you are at altitude in CA?
          MSEE, PE

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sunking View Post
            Mike I take it you are at altitude in CA?
            only 1,400' but the last storm was an arctic express, froze everything, nobody had ever seen anything like it, and when the ice in the hydrant thawed, it made a spectacular fountain.
            Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
            || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
            || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

            solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
            gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

            Comment


            • Just thought I'd poke my nose in here and ask Mike how his batteries are doing? I have had mine running for about 8 months now. So far so good I guess. I know there are other's here with them. How is everyone else doing with theirs?
              Brian

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Brian1 View Post
                Just thought I'd poke my nose in here and ask Mike how his batteries are doing? I have had mine running for about 8 months now. So far so good I guess. I know there are other's here with them. How is everyone else doing with theirs?
                Brian
                They are thirsty beasts. At least with all the water they are electrolyzing, they will be displacing Co2 from getting in there. If you are in a site that you have mostly reliable sun - I'd say use lead-acid. I've known my area has days/weeks of cloud cover and scant solar harvest in those times, so I run a generator to keep the system up. Lead acid would require much more generator run time than I have been using.

                But Chris Olsen uses a novel interpretation of "cycle" and only brings his lead acid bank up to full charge on rare occasions, and saves many cycles, and seems to not be sulfating his cells either, and getting good life and capacity with them.
                Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Brian1 View Post
                  Just thought I'd poke my nose in here and ask Mike how his batteries are doing? I have had mine running for about 8 months now. So far so good I guess. I know there are other's here with them. How is everyone else doing with theirs?
                  Brian
                  Hello Brian,

                  Since I read that you like to experiment and don't mind keeping records it may be you
                  that winds up coming up with answers to a few NiFe questions with your
                  8 month old Ni-Fe battery bank.
                  You probably won't want to wait until the battery bank is already half shot.

                  After the Ni-Fe basics everything points to the Ni-Fe Electrolyte but I don't know of anyone
                  who ever reported on the progress of the potassium carbonates build-up
                  (or ANY other build-ups)
                  as things went along.

                  You may be the first in the history of the Nickel Iron Game to share and report such findings!

                  You will find some fresh information about what to look for in your
                  Nickel Iron Electrolyte in the

                  'INSTALLATION AND MAINTENANCE MANUAL OF CHANGHONG SOLAR PV NI-IRON
                  STORAGE CELL NF-S'

                  Located at the Changhong Batteries website.

                  (Yes, that is the actual Title

                  Bill Blake

                  Comment


                  • Mike,
                    I went with these batteries after killing many FLAs. I needed to get away from the sulfation problem. Winter is pretty tough around here.

                    Bill, after I downloaded that document I found I already had it on my hard drive from previous searches through that website before I bought the batteries. Now I just need to know how to measure potassium carbonates. When I get that figured out I can start to take readings and add them to my data.

                    Brian

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Brian1 View Post
                      ..... Now I just need to know how to measure potassium carbonates. When I get that figured out I can start to take readings and add them to my data.

                      Brian
                      The company I bought my batteries from, sells a test kit ( it's not a simple test, needs some lab gear) which I can't locate right now on their web site.
                      Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                      || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                      || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                      solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                      gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                      Comment


                      • Nickel Iron Battery Electrolyte

                        Originally posted by Brian1 View Post
                        Mike,
                        I went with these batteries after killing many FLAs. I needed to get away from the sulfation problem. Winter is pretty tough around here.

                        Bill, after I downloaded that document I found I already had it on my hard drive from previous searches through that website before I bought the batteries. Now I just need to know how to measure potassium carbonates. When I get that figured out I can start to take readings and add them to my data.

                        Brian

                        Your Changhong reseller should be able to school you in how to check for carbonates
                        if they are running any kind of a business. I went over the Changhong Battery requirements
                        with both resellers located in Colorado years ago.
                        Normally they pick and choose what they want to copy from the Chinese Manuals
                        for their own version of the Ni-Fe resellers Owner's Manuals. They also pick what info they want to
                        alter or suppress which has been a big problem for people. I kept some of the Ni-Fe resellers Literature
                        to compare with the Chinese Manuals years ago.

                        The Nickel Iron Electrolyte is at the heart of the Nickel Iron Riddles from so long ago.

                        Mr. Edison left many clues in his Patents which tie into the 'context thinking' that it takes today.
                        As in what to look for going wrong with the electrolyte.
                        If your not worried about getting the maximum number of years at high Capacity Levels
                        it's not important. So far with the welded negative and positive plates Chinese Ni-Fe is 'throw away'
                        as they honestly and clearly state in their Life Cycles Chart and the Life Cycle written explanations
                        going all the way back through 'The Changhong Gospels'.

                        The modern myths, tales, stories, fabrications, etc. never were planted by China.
                        They don't seem to need that kind of business. They are what they are and please customers
                        all over the world who know what to actually look for and what to really expect.

                        A lot of those huge Government customers over there 'Can't Live on Fairy Tales'.

                        Changhong Batteries provided some clues and some instructions years ago but with the
                        Chinese to English Translation and different authors as time goes by you really need to pay
                        very close attention.

                        Sometimes the meaning of what they are trying to get across can change with one or two words later
                        in the same document. Or enhance your 'context thinking' from document to document.

                        The Changhong Owners Manual old Bill is talking about is the new 2014 version. You may have something
                        older with the same Title. They do that sometimes like with the current Solar PV Application Brochure.
                        It contains the 'Solar Blivet Charging' method used by lots of different batteries causing financial
                        havoc and woe to many.
                        We are still years away from a good long Look at 'The Ni-Fe Theory of Battery-tivity'

                        Whatever, with 'Diamond' John D'Angelo (one of the Ni-Fe resellers) it's in his Warranty that you
                        WILL check for carbonates every year OR you WILL Lose your Warranty.
                        Plain and simple.
                        Changhong has one Line to Lay on you for Float mode and another Line for real battery cycle work.
                        It's best to be educated as to the difference.
                        Mr. Edison and Changhong were ALWAYS Looking for more problems in the electrolyte
                        than just carbonates. Dat nasty Lye type electrolyte can be rough on a person.
                        Now the Chinese are spelling the problems out just a little better and not leaving things quite so nebulous.
                        Just a few words with them can be a huge deal.

                        <snip from Changhong Batteries talking about Ni-Fe Batteries doing real work>


                        NICKEL IRON BATTERY ELECTROLYTE REPLACEMENT

                        3.3.3

                        The electrolyte will absorb the carbon dioxide in

                        the air and create carbonate easily during

                        operation. When carbonate in the electrolyte is

                        over 50g/L, the performance of the battery

                        will be badly effected. After charge and

                        discharge for 150~200 cycles or operate for 1

                        year, please check the carbonate in the

                        electrolyte. If the carbonate in the electrolyte is

                        over 50g/L, please replace the electrolyte.

                        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        150-200 Cycles.
                        Plain and simple.

                        Bill Blake

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sundetective View Post
                          150-200 Cycles.
                          Plain and simple.
                          Just to make it 100% clear, that does not mean that you should expect to replace the electrolyte after 200 cycles, just that you MUST TEST after 200 cycles and be prepared to replace the electrolyte if your luck has run out.
                          SunnyBoy 3000 US, 18 BP Solar 175B panels.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
                            They are thirsty beasts. At least with all the water they are electrolyzing, they will be displacing Co2 from getting in there. If you are in a site that you have mostly reliable sun - I'd say use lead-acid. I've known my area has days/weeks of cloud cover and scant solar harvest in those times, so I run a generator to keep the system up. Lead acid would require much more generator run time than I have been using.

                            But Chris Olsen uses a novel interpretation of "cycle" and only brings his lead acid bank up to full charge on rare occasions, and saves many cycles, and seems to not be sulfating his cells either, and getting good life and capacity with them.

                            I tried to get the 'Modified Production, GiantBatteryCo Battery Bank' philosophy that Chris was running
                            figured out back in 2012.

                            We discussed it briefly in a different forum.
                            Never did figure out how you 'Use 5 battery Days - but 4 of them are Free'.

                            Ran a great snip and a Link from Giant Battery back then that said:

                            <snip>

                            "Never make a habit of giving short charges during lunch or break time.

                            Each short charge constitutes a “cycle” and over time will significantly affect the performance

                            and life of the battery".
                            ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                            Perhaps I didn't get it but it seemed that incomplete sessions of Solar or Wind charging wouldn't play
                            into the Giant Battery charging scheme.
                            It would be nice to see a more up to date thread on it sometime.

                            Bill Blake

                            Comment


                            • Mike,
                              I would be interested in more information about the test equipment you have.
                              50g/liter is .05%. Seems the best way to avoid this problem is to make this a closed system that doesn't allow any outside gasses in at all and also to use water purer than distilled. I would think that recombiners on each of the cells to combine the hydrogen and oxygen back into water. This would also solve the watering issue also as almost all of the hydrogen and oxygen would be recombined into water which would drop back into the cells. I was going to use platinum beads as a safety feature in my hydrogen generator. I would pass the hydrogen through the beads and any oxygen would combine with the hydrogen back into water and drop back into the process leaving only pure hydrogen pass on to storage.

                              1st thought off the top of my head for this is containers of platinum beads on each of the vent/watering holes with tubes coming out the top and then joined together to collect anything that makes it passed the beads and provide for expansion due to temperature change and from there into a water sealed arrangement where water will be displaced and replaced as required. I would likely consider using the clear medical tubing I have used on other projects which has a conductive strip molded into it so it can be grounded to eliminate the chance of static sparks. I will have to investigate this gain since I was only having to insure it would work in an oxygen environment.
                              More thought is required.
                              Brian

                              Comment


                              • Forgot to add this to my post.

                                http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00HZVRV4A/...SIN=B00HZVRV4A

                                Comment

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