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LiFeP04 - the ultimate rip off

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  • LiFeP04 - the ultimate rip off

    Well kids - Lifepo4, as much as I like them when treated properly for the application at hand, has not dropped in price significantly enough to justify further usage here when I first started evaluating them 10 years ago in 2008.

    Why? Because the common materials are so cheap compared to other batteries, that I can no longer overlook the pricing from an "early adopter" viewpoint.

    Really - lithium and ferrous oxide? (basically iron). Some pretty common elements, and the price gouging is too much for me to take seriously any more based on that. Forget the marketing drivel about 2000 cycles or more trying to hide the fact that these common materials should not be this expensive.

    Unless it is some trivial project (where prices per wh is even worse when smaller), I won't be using LFP due to the artificial price-gouging of plentiful simplistic materials. Manufacturers had their chance, but no thanks - time's up. Now it's just pure greed, so no thanks.

    They can talk performance and cycle life all day long, but I feel like a fool paying ridiculous prices for common materials.

    P.S. - Lead isn't off the hook either, being that what 99% of what we buy is *recycled* lead, and not pure?! Another forum perhaps.
    Last edited by PNjunction; 12-23-2018, 04:13 AM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by PNjunction View Post
    Well kids - Lifepo4, as much as I like them when treated properly for the application at hand, has not dropped in price significantly enough to justify further usage here when I first started evaluating them 10 years ago in 2008.

    Why? Because the common materials are so cheap compared to other batteries, that I can no longer overlook the pricing from an "early adopter" viewpoint.

    Really - lithium and ferrous oxide? (basically iron). Some pretty common elements, and the price gouging is too much for me to take seriously any more based on that. Forget the marketing drivel about 2000 cycles or more trying to hide the fact that these common materials should not be this expensive.

    Unless it is some trivial project (where prices per wh is even worse when smaller), I won't be using LFP due to the artificial price-gouging of plentiful simplistic materials. Manufacturers had their chance, but no thanks - time's up. Now it's just pure greed, so no thanks.

    They can talk performance and cycle life all day long, but I feel like a fool paying ridiculous prices for common materials.

    P.S. - Lead isn't off the hook either, being that what 99% of what we buy is *recycled* lead, and not pure?! Another forum perhaps.
    Face it. The battery manufacturers have us by the balls. They know is a key factor to solar and wind energy storage so why should they lower the price when the market keeps increasing.

    As for the fake news that Li batteries from Tesla will become cheap as dirt. I say don't hold your breath.

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    • #3
      Here is one reason to not hold your breath about cheap Lithium batteries:
      https://www.theepochtimes.com/life-b...EzKszqfImCOWNo

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      • #4
        Well PN I came to that conclusion 10 years ago. I agree with your assessment with one exception. Lithium is abundant but is in extremely low concentrations making it extremnely expensive to mine. Where it is easy in brine pools, the Chi - Coms hold most of the worlds reserve and will take World War to conquer.

        Even if it were abundant another well kept secret is lithium batteries have a negative EROI and basically for RE and EV is throwing precious resources away robbing our children of energy reserves wasting energy. There is no battery with with unity or positive EROI, thus will always be a multiple of the base fuel cost like hydrogen which has the worse EROI of 5 to 10%. So manufacturing cost are extremely high. Initially out of ignorance on my part I thought there was price gouging especially when the Chi-Com POS Thundersky came along 10 years ago at half the price of western countries batteries. Well they went bakrupt very quickly and th eoffshoots CALB, Winston, and Sinopoly are no bargain even with Chi-Coms manipulating currency and taking short cuts.

        Today there is just way to much competition from many manufactures, and there is no Consortium to fix prices. It is just simple cost of manufacturing that cannot be lowered any more. The raw materials and process is just expensive and reflected in the cost. When up against other chemistries, lithium is a looser.
        Last edited by Sunking; 12-26-2018, 06:43 PM.
        MSEE, PE

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        • #5
          Originally posted by PNjunction View Post
          They can talk performance and cycle life all day long, but I feel like a fool paying ridiculous prices for common materials.
          Let's hope you never cotton to what diamonds are made of . . .

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          • #6
            A rip off maybe, but in my case still better value than any other available energy storage medium..

            Those cells that you first evaluated 10 years ago will still have over 80% capacity if they have been used correctly, and will likely last another 10 years.

            If that's the worst ripoff i experience in life i will feel prerty lucky!

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