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  • Originally posted by AaronTSchultz View Post
    Sun Eagle. You are never going to clear everybody from everything... but by stating the dangers, and being as vague as possible, is going to help you not get sued. Avoid liability by stating that you don't agree with what this person is saying and there are dangers, but blocking them didn't seem necessary. It seemed like you did that because he disagreed with you. Which makes you look very immature. Also by stating you would do something because it's safer, puts much more liability on you. ( I only say this because I hope it helps). There is a way for you to avoid liability, but still offer the opportunity for users to discuss and grow in their knowledge. Again Someone is much more likely to eventually hurt themselves if they don't have the information and how to avoid a problem.
    Maybe you are right in that my approach by using a temporary ban is not a good action. Yet I have given a temporary ban or "time out" to other members that have become unruly or abusive with their posts. Just like I would give my child if they misbehaved.

    I am not sure if Evmusic is still hanging around the forum but as far as I know they have stopped making disruptive posts, which is what I was aiming at by my actions.

    I am thankful for some of what you have posted because I consider I should always keep my mind open and be learning from others. But I do not have to always agree with what others have said or change my attitude 100%.

    I am still in the mind that a DIY energy storage system should not be approached by anyone that is not experienced with the technology or has Safety as their first action step. If that puts me in the wrong then so be it.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by SunEagle View Post

      Maybe you are right in that my approach by using a temporary ban is not a good action. Yet I have given a temporary ban or "time out" to other members that have become unruly or abusive with their posts. Just like I would give my child if they misbehaved.

      I am not sure if Evmusic is still hanging around the forum but as far as I know they have stopped making disruptive posts, which is what I was aiming at by my actions.

      I am thankful for some of what you have posted because I consider I should always keep my mind open and be learning from others. But I do not have to always agree with what others have said or change my attitude 100%.

      I am still in the mind that a DIY energy storage system should not be approached by anyone that is not experienced with the technology or has Safety as their first action step. If that puts me in the wrong then so be it.
      I am not disagreeing that a temporary ban is not an effective tool, I just did not see any of his posts being offensive or obscured other than it disagreed with your opinion on the matter. As I recall your reason for banning was "I am tired of arguing with you". It seemed like he was doing a better job of informing people and you were doing a good job shouting him down and ultimately blocking him because you disagreed with him. If someone is using abusive, racist, sexist, foul language I can see blocking them, but just for disagreeing seemed harsh. But I guess you say he was being "Disruptive" and I guess if you are a moderator you can be a dictator of what is on your boards and I have to accept that. It's one thing to disagree, and another to censor that person through force. Just because you might not feel like you are winning an argument doesn't mean you should shut down the other side.

      With DIY energy storage I think we have a common ground that Safety should be a first priority, but I think we can both agree that no system is 100% safe. In my opinion the best way to avoid catastrophe is to inform people the dangers of both, how to avoid the dangers of both realistically, and let them make the decision that best suits their ability and risk tolerance, because nobody knows someones ability and risk tolerance but said individual.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by SunEagle View Post
        Maybe you are right in that my approach by using a temporary ban is not a good action. Yet I have given a temporary ban or "time out" to other members t
        I am thankful for some of what you have posted because I consider I should always keep my mind open and be learning from others. But I do not have to always agree with what others have said or change my attitude 100%.
        The real issue with the moderating on this site is that it puts the mods in a position of needing to be subject matter experts as well as behavioral moderators. Yet, you guys cannot nor will ever be true experts on all the possible things people will want to discuss here.

        When those two things get conflated, the forum loses value and membership -- relative to other places where open discourse is permitted. Already this subforum has been essentially reduced to a quiet wasteland.

        To your point you made a few posts ago, you all made a conscious choice to have it this way. And that is fine! But, I'm not convinced that your measures have to be so draconian. It may well be possible to permit open discourse, to minimize liability, and still to be able to sleep at night after you've read what others have posted. Goodness knows, a bunch of other forums have managed to figure it out.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by SunEagle View Post
          ................

          So if you feel my posts are not reaching the bottom 99%, then think again. I have to make sure anyone that comes to this forum gets answers to their questions and are given safe instructions to use the Solar pv technology. If I have to be a little stern or abrupt in my posts then suck it up because you are not responsible for the people that come here. I have been tasked with helping and keeping them safe. You have not.
          I have heard several moderators say that they are responsible for keeping owners of the forum from being sued. Are there any real world examples of Forum owners being sued. I thought there were First Amendment protections for free speech?
          There is also risk telling people what a safe process is unless you cover every aspect of the procedure. As noted above I think the First Amendment covers that also. I think a disclaimer at the beginning of this forum or something that people acknowledge when they sign up would be more effective but that is the owner's call not mine.
          9 kW solar. Driving EVs since 2012

          Comment


          • Originally posted by nebster View Post

            The real issue with the moderating on this site is that it puts the mods in a position of needing to be subject matter experts as well as behavioral moderators. Yet, you guys cannot nor will ever be true experts on all the possible things people will want to discuss here.

            When those two things get conflated, the forum loses value and membership -- relative to other places where open discourse is permitted. Already this subforum has been essentially reduced to a quiet wasteland.

            To your point you made a few posts ago, you all made a conscious choice to have it this way. And that is fine! But, I'm not convinced that your measures have to be so draconian. It may well be possible to permit open discourse, to minimize liability, and still to be able to sleep at night after you've read what others have posted. Goodness knows, a bunch of other forums have managed to figure it out.
            Thank you for stating this in a much more effective, eloquent manner than my abilities permit.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Ampster View Post
              Are there any real world examples of Forum owners being sued.
              A long time ago I ran a forum (actually a BBS) and ended up as a defendant in a suit because of something that happened on the forum. A lot of details have faded from memory but one that stands out was my attorney telling me that I was liable for things said on the forum unless I did no editing or moderating, Since the owner isn't going to let this turn into a free-for all, we'll be moderating as best we can with safety in mind, but also to keep things civil.

              Originally posted by Ampster View Post
              I thought there were First Amendment protections for free speech?
              Not applicable to private forums. Besides, if someone suggests something that we think is dangerous, free speech notwithstanding, we'll remove it.
              Last edited by sdold; 04-29-2019, 03:48 PM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by sdold View Post
                A long time ago I ran a forum (actually a BBS) and ended up as a defendant in a suit because of something that happened on the forum. A lot of details have faded from memory but one that stands out was my attorney telling me that I was liable for things said on the forum unless I did no editing or moderating, Since the owner isn't going to let this turn into a free-for all, we'll be moderating as best we can with safety in mind, but also to keep things civil.
                Details could be important depending on what was said. Any more relevant examples? Perhaps the law has evolved since the BBS days. Don't get me wrong, anybody can be sued. The real issue is has there been any judgements of significance?
                Not applicable to private forums. Besides, if someone suggests something that we think is dangerous, free speech notwithstanding, we'll remove it.
                I was referring to First Amendment protecting forum owners from liability under the theory that posters were protected from liability by the First Amendment. I am am curious to hear from the forum owner since It seems like in this short part of this thread there is already inconsistency among moderators. Does the forum owner have a policy? Is that available in some form as a guideline to us posters.

                For example, I was timed out six months ago and I don't know if it was because I disagreed with a moderator or he did not understand what I was suggesting. As Aaron has said, it would have been a better educational experience for the lurkers and participants to understand what the moderator thought was dangerous and what was not. Since then I have posted virtually the same comment that in California there is no legislation that says I have to ask permission of the POCO to install a UL certified Hybrid inverter if it is behind the meter and not connected to the grid. Same as a generator. Of course in the case of a hybrid inverter one has to obtain a building permit and I assume the same for a transfer switch for a generator. I went so far as to ask a building inspector in Sonoma County and he agreed. I also asked a lineman from PG&E and he could not refer me to anything or anybody that said anything different.
                9 kW solar. Driving EVs since 2012

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Ampster View Post
                  Details could be important depending on what was said. Any more relevant examples? Perhaps the law has evolved since the BBS days. Don't get me wrong, anybody can be sued. The real issue is has there been any judgements of significance?
                  There was no judgement, but there didn't need to be to cause real damage. It cost me over $8000 to hire a lawyer and defend in a case that was eventually dropped because (according to my lawyer) it was a weak case that should never have existed. He told me that by moderating the forum and not editing or deleting certain posts I was implying that they were true and that was why I was named in the suit. The first amendment doesn't protect you from the consequences of saying things, it just means the government won't stop you from saying them. I don't speak for the forum owners or other moderators, but liability is something I consider when I see what I think is dangerous advice that's unchecked. Sometimes I might err on the conservative side, but I'd rather occasionally throw the baby out with the bathwater than have the forum owners involved in the kind of thing that I went through, or worse, hear that someone's home has been destroyed or someone is dead.

                  Comment


                  • Hi All,

                    Just thought I would chime in here, as someone stated the mods and admins dont and cant be expected to know everything about all subjects all the mods are unpaid volunteers who spend some time here to keep the wheels turning for all members and lurkers benefit. Some days the mods or admins have a bit of time to deal with matters that arise other days they have the delete or ban buttons, the mods are all knowledgeable good people and I support their decisions 100%. This is not a democracy, posts will be deleted and people banned as we see fit, cheers

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by SunEagle View Post
                      If you go back to the original post it has to do with used Tesla batteries wired for a home energy project. Not Tesla EV's, Powerwalls or other manufactured home storage systems. All of those have been engineered with charging and cooling systems that will help reduce the potential for a fire or worse.
                      That is a very important point.

                      An EV (or an indoor battery storage system) is designed from the ground up around a battery. There are BMS systems, cooling/heating systems, different charge and charge protection systems and limited draws. There are protection devices, often several. There are contactors to isolate the battery when the car is off. There's a smart controller limiting charge and discharge. And the manufacturer has a very detailed tracking system that tracks the cell from receiving all the way to the finished product rolling out the door.

                      In other words, they are pretty safe.

                      A second life EV battery has none of that. Generally it does not have a BMS. It doesn't have the contactors and protection devices. It doesn't have that cooling/heating system. It doesn't have a very smart controller deciding whether to continue charging. It may have been in a wreck. It may have been partially submerged in water. It may have been abused by an idiot with a homemade charger or homemade battery tester. It may have endured a guy with the wrong size impact wrench trying to remove it from the car.

                      In other words, they are less safe.

                      UL has begun to address this, and now has testing and handling standards for second life EV batteries. It is safe to say that most people working with them do not bother with such testing.

                      That's not to say they are deathtraps. I have two 3kWhr Tesla batteries that I am experimenting with; they are connected to a charger, inverter and charge controller set up to reduce my house load to zero during "reduce your use" days (which the utility then pays you for.) But they are also in a steel box outside my house, set up with a bib that lets me flood the box if they go up in a fire. There's no way I would keep them inside my house - and anyone who does so is literally playing with fire.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Ampster View Post
                        ...... In the case of a Tesla battery being used in a stationary application as was the point of this thread it is unlikely that the battery would be stressed like in a car provided the user uses common sense.
                        And sadly, the "common sense" regarding Li batteries has not had time to develop. Like stressed cells gassing. Some of that gas is Hydrofluoric Acid which is never good with life.
                        But "Who Knew" ? Or that deeply discharging a bank and then rechargeing it, sets it up for dendrite shorts in a month. Nobody ever connected last months deep discharge, with the fire.

                        and the different flavors of Li batteries, all have subtle charge/discharge differences. I got this pack from a dead XYZ, and stripped off all this extra stuff and use 3, 48V golf cart chargers to charge it. Why is it smoking all the time ?

                        Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                        || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                        || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                        solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                        gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                        Comment


                        • Funny thing is we get sucked into long discussions about a battery chemistry (NON-lifepo4) that is not ideal for adequate solar storage, and thus getting off on the wrong foot from the get-go.

                          Much like discussing how to make a solar storage bank out of vehicular starter batteries. Not only that, but the Tesla batteries aren't purchased from Tesla or a direct authorized distributor directly - they are from vehicular crash dumps.

                          Hi, I want to build a 48v solar storage bank out of batteries that I got from the wrecking yard - and you guys are too uncool to tell me how to do it!

                          Whether li-ion, or even lead acid, such foolish threads don't even need to get started. Safety, even if you know li-ion like the back of your hand, doesn't START with cells of unknown pedigree. Game over.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by PNjunction View Post
                            Funny thing is we get sucked into long discussions about a battery chemistry (NON-lifepo4) that is not ideal for adequate solar storage, and thus getting off on the wrong foot from the get-go.
                            I think one of the issues is that some users are specifically looking for a [I]mobile[/I] storage solution, and in that scenario the risk/benefit equation is surely different. We do now see name-brand, production manufacturers shipping cobalt chemistry packs for use on boats and RVs. Not on [I]my[/I] boat or RV, mind you... but nevertheless, it is gradually becoming something people think about and sometimes even do.

                            Comment


                            • Well, yeah - most people don't realize that like all cobalt-based li-ions (or anything non-lifepo4), the cycle-life is ridiculous in our application.

                              Basically the wrong battery for the wrong application. Yes, we can shoehorn these cells into our application if one know what they are doing and willing to accept the cost/benefit.

                              Unfortunately, what we see mostly happening is diy'ers trying to turn lithium trash into gold on the cheap, without investing any knowledge, and crying when we won't tell them how to wire up their trash. Just like we don't go deep into depth on the guy wanting to build a bank out of 100 little 5ah agm's found at the dump.

                              I think the differentiation is this: does the forum serve to discuss "over the counter" projects from reliable distributors, or just support the diy'er trying to cobble stuff together without regard to his/her own safety on the cheap.?

                              Not everyone here fits that description obviously. That's usually seen when they take safety seriously - regardless of battery chemistry. When they get offended, that's when I become suspicious of a marketing agenda for crash-victim battery projects.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by PNjunction View Post
                                Well, yeah - most people don't realize that like all cobalt-based li-ions (or anything non-lifepo4), the cycle-life is ridiculous in our application.
                                I'd like to discuss this further, perhaps in another thread. The data I've had a chance to look at (mostly self-reported large sets, but also a few papers) suggests that some of the cobalt chemistries are performing much better than perhaps had been expected or extrapolated in earlier years. In fact, given the substantially lower cost of these cells, it looks close enough to possibly meet or beat LFP for total lifecycle cost. Which is interesting. I'd be interested to learn if your understanding is otherwise and to see your evidence, if so.

                                Also, I agree with the rest of your post.

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