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Winston LFP life?? Real world usage

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  • Winston LFP life?? Real world usage

    Hi guys,

    I am looking into replacing my bank, it still has a few years left but just getting my options together.

    Looking at the winston LFP batts, but I have issues with their claims of >=7000 cycles. Now this would equate to 19.2yrs life span on a daily cycle. Winston do not state any expectancy on Time life
    I am very pessimistic of these claims and was wondering if I could get some real world examples from people running these prismatic cells.

    So if your running a winston LFP bank I would like to hear your experiences, and details of your install. Ie age, cycles (approx), capacity loss etc.

    Winston have quoted me $1USD/ah/cell which comes to $8000USD for a 24v 1000ah bank + shipping plus import duty to my country (AUS) = ~700Ah usable
    Temps are not a problem as the batts will be kept in my Air conditioned battery room, so constant 25-30 deg c. (air con goes off at night, when there is no solar input)

    The other option I have is to go LA again, at present I'm using gell, but I would go to these Trojan FLA's this time
    http://www.trojanbattery.com/product...ine-flooded-2/

    Mainly due to the 3600 cycles at 50% discharge. The Trojan bank comes in slightly cheaper for a similar bank with ~675Ah usable @ 50%
    Trojan also claim there cells have a 17.6yr Time life.
    By cycle life alone the cells are looking at approx 10yrs

    Looking forward to hearing peoples experiences with the Winston, I know sunking is of the opinion that at this stage LFP is not worth it over LA/FLA
    Last edited by inetdog; 03-03-2019, 12:50 PM. Reason: Fixed speling in Title

  • #2
    If you have lead acid, and can tough out another battery cycle of what you have now, that's the route I'd suggest. then for the next 7 years while you are watering the batteries, you can hope some better tech comes along. LFP is not quite ready yet, too many things for the layman to overlook or not notice something is wrong. 1 over charge or 1 deep discharge, and that cell(s) are toast. Charge controllers mostly don't talk to BMS. BMS vendor will only replace BMS if it goes bad and kills the bank.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

    Comment


    • #3
      I should add, that my current system. Victron Multi with AC coupled solar is fully compatible both with LFP and talking to a individual cell monitoring (high/low) BMS.
      But after reading this forum I'm swaying towards the Trojans as almost guaranteed ~10yr life for my investment.
      The Winston cells were looking good but I can't find any data supporting their claimed 7000cycles at 70% DOD, nor their time life.

      Comment


      • #4
        I am responsible for designing and installing two offgrid systems which are nearly five years old that use Winston batteries. I have not noticed any change in the performance of both batteries since they were new. Both batteries comprise 32x90Ah Winston batteries which give nominal storage of ~9.3kWh. My daily average power consumption over last year was ~3.1kWh/day, maximum power out ~6.0kW, maximum power in ~1.3kW. We don't have and don't need a generator for backup.

        Now that solar panels are much cheaper if I built the system now I would reduce the battery size by a third and more than double the size of the solar array. If you have a generator cycling LFP (LiFePO4) 50+%/day in the SOC range 99%-20% and turning on the generator if the SOC goes below 20% to boost the SOC to around 40%-50% will give good utilisation of the battery.

        I would have a look at posts by steveg to see how he runs his LFP based system that is nearly 8 years old. There are many people on the Australian Energy Matters forum that have been running both Winston and CALB LFP batteries for around 5 years with similar stories.

        Two big differences between LFP and LA batteries are
        1. The internal resistance of LFP batteries does not change much over time so you might loose 10%-20% of capacity with an LFP battery over ten years but the voltage sag with load will not change.
        2. The overall efficiency of an LFP battery of around 95% battery will not change much with age


        Simon
        Off grid 24V system, 6x190W Solar Panels, 32x90ah Winston LiFeYPO4 batteries installed April 2013
        BMS - Homemade Battery logger github.com/simat/BatteryMonitor/wiki
        Latronics 4kW Inverter, homemade MPPT controller
        Off-Grid LFP(LiFePO4) system since April 2013

        Comment


        • #5
          Hello! Gammanone I also looking into to replacing old LA bank. Few days ago I found quite interesting article "Battery capacity drop during operation" written by S. Papezova and V. Papez.
          According this article winston cells dont last that long as mentioned in specification, but still they are living 4000 cycles 50% DoD.
          I want to run 48 winston LiFeYPO4 400 Ah cells 16s3p with Victron Multi. The question there is how to find good BMS which can communicate with Victron CCGX. Dear karrak could you give recomendations?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Vildhjarta View Post
            Hello! Gammanone I also looking into to replacing old LA bank. Few days ago I found quite interesting article "Battery capacity drop during operation" written by S. Papezova and V. Papez.
            According this article winston cells dont last that long as mentioned in specification, but still they are living 4000 cycles 50% DoD.
            I want to run 48 winston LiFeYPO4 400 Ah cells 16s3p with Victron Multi. The question there is how to find good BMS which can communicate with Victron CCGX. Dear karrak could you give recomendations?
            Unfortunately the number one person that was supporting the Winston cells has been banned and will no longer be providing any input to this forum.

            If I were you I would do a deep dive into finding if the claim of 4000 cycles was valid before I purchase those things.

            Comment


            • #7
              I know of more than a dozen systems using Winston cells that are more than 5 years old and still going strong. Use a good BMS, and most importantly install your batts in a climate controlled enclosure.

              The REC BMS will communicate with the Victron

              Comment


              • #8
                Winston cells are about as low end as you can get. No BMS required.
                MSEE, PE

                Comment


                • #9
                  I agree, and yet there are plenty of Winston systems in use from 2012 that are still at well over 80% capacity.

                  It bodes well for the well built cells lasting 20years +

                  The BMS isn't required, but if you have something like a Victron easysolar, it makes DIY lithium pretty foolproof.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I put 35 Winston 100 Ahr cells in an EV in 2012. They were purchased from a local distributor in LA. I sold that car in 2016, and as far as I know they are still powering that car. It did have a BMS..

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by tom rickard View Post
                      ....

                      The BMS isn't required, but if you have something like a Victron easysolar, it makes DIY lithium pretty foolproof.
                      So, this is your last warning. Spouting nonsense like BMS with brand xyzed batteries is not required.

                      You are fricking dangerous stupid. You must have watched some youtube videos in your lifetime. People never do things right, they always shortcut, and Li batteries have no forgiveness. Do the wrong thing, and they self-immolate . No lighter fluid needed

                      We will ban you in a heartbeat spouting this dangerous advice. Even couched in terms " I did it, and it's been safe so far ".

                      You will kill some ignorant prepper family because the read your advice and experience, and died a week after the fire from hydrofluoric acid burns in their lungs


                      Originally posted by Sunking View Post
                      Winston cells are about as low end as you can get. No BMS required.
                      You too ! I get the joke, but joe prepper won't

                      While LiPo4 batteries are safer, they are no idiot proof. Take away the BMS and some joker will leave a charger on the wrong setting
                      Last edited by Mike90250; 03-03-2019, 11:34 AM.
                      Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                      || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                      || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                      solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                      gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Vildhjarta View Post
                        According this article winston cells dont last that long as mentioned in specification, but still they are living 4000 cycles 50% DoD.
                        OK hold the bus here and use some common sense. Winston, Calb, and Sinopoly are all Chi-Com batteries and are the lowest quality cells money can buy. That is just a fact. The very best LFP cells are made by A123 Systems, LG Chem, and Panasonic. So ask yourself this. If those top branded companies only companies only claim and warrant 1000 cycles or less, what leads you to believe Chi-Coms are superior? Are you that gullible and ignorant? Calb, Winston and Sinopoly are what is left of the bankrupt Thundersky batteries.

                        I have used CALB and Winston Cells. They come no where close to Panasonic and LG Chem. For an EV, manufactures must use Lithium batteries, and none use LFP cells. They would use Pb batteries if they could because they last longer at 1/5 to 1/3 the price of lithium. The problem is size and weight which is not a problem for stationary solar systems.

                        For 1/3 the price of lithium you can buy Pb batteries that can be discharged to 50% DOD with 3600 cycles and come with a real 10-year warranty made in the USA. I dare you to fike a claim on a Chi-Com with a 1-year warranty you will never get them to honor. That ten year warranty is full replacement for the first 3 years.

                        I use lithium batteries, a lot of them. But they all have niche applications like EV's, RC planes, laptops, cell phones, and power tools. When lithium can be competitive with Pb for RE and general purposes, I will switch. That day has not come around yet.

                        MSEE, PE

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post

                          .....You too .

                          While LiPo4 batteries are safer, they are no idiot proof..........
                          I don't think Sunking is joking. I have read many of his posts about the safe use of lithium batteries with and without BMSs. The important details are what are the safe practices and what chemistries are more volatile. This sticky thread is a good discussion of proper care:
                          https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/forum...rging-and-care

                          Also, do you mean LFP (LiFePO4)? Lipo batteries are the ones used by RC Plane hobbyists and they produce spectacular fires when damaged by puncturing or overcharging. Again SK can enlighten us about the differences, if he has the time.
                          Last edited by Ampster; 03-03-2019, 02:24 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Ampster View Post
                            Also, do you mean LFP (LiFePO4)? Lipo batteries are the ones used by RC Plane hobbyists and they produce spectacular fires when damaged by puncturing or overcharging. Again SK can enlighten us about the differences, if he has the time.
                            LFP = Lithium Iron Phosphate: LiFePO4
                            LCO = Lithium Cobalt Oxide: LiCoO2
                            LMO =
                            Lithium Manganese Oxide: LiMn2O4
                            NMC = Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide: LiNiMnCoO2

                            Those are the most commercially used Lithium batteries out there. EV manucatures do not use LFP because the energy density is not that great compared to the other types. Well some Chi=Com EV's use LFP cells, but do not look for them outside of China. LFP is the most stable where LCO has the highest energy density but the most unstable. Tesla Motors who is now going bankrupt uses LCO type cells. Nissan uses NMC, and others use LMO.

                            LiPo today has no real meaning and a marketing term. For whatever reason RC Model Industry uses that term, but they are hybrid LCO cells that use a Gelled Electrolyte to get internal resistance as low as possible and highest energy density. As such are very unstable and dangerous with the shortest life cycle of 50 to 100 cycles. However there Specific Energy and Energy Density are the highest of all batteries. Today they are rated up to 100C discharge rates. If you do not understand what 100C means is fully discharged in 36 seconds. Put another way a 1 AH battery discharge at 100 amps in 36 seconds. Applications would be something like rocket motor fuel pumps or drag racing where price is no object, only performance matters.

                            EDIT NOTE: I left one very popular type out and made a mistake. NCA =
                            Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum Oxide: LiNiCoAlO2. This is the one Telsa uses on thier EV's and made by Panasonic. These are the bad boys of the lithium battery crowd. Very expensive and dangerous. But they have the highest energy density of 250 wh.Kg. Check out the spec sheet and note Cycle Life = 500 cycles which is about the norm. They are Panasonic NCR18650B cells.
                            Last edited by Sunking; 03-03-2019, 08:29 PM.
                            MSEE, PE

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Sunking View Post

                              LFP = Lithium Iron Phosphate: LiFePO4
                              LCO = Lithium Cobalt Oxide: LiCoO2
                              LMO =
                              Lithium Manganese Oxide: LiMn2O4
                              NMC = Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide: LiNiMnCoO[SUB]2
                              ......
                              Where do LiPO batteries fit in, I read recently that the new Hyundai and Kia EVs are using LiPO batteries made by LG Chem. All I know about LiPO is they use a polymer electrolyte instead of a liquid electrolyte. Is it the electrolyte that makes them volatile or a combination of the electrolyte and one of the Cobalt chemistries that makes them roman candles when they get overheated?

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