Worlds Biggest Battery

[Sunking]

We are advising the bulk of our clients to wait a bit as the prices for batterys should come down in the next couple of years, but even then some people want to be early adopters so we can get LG Chem batteries for those guys.

I think you mean Tesla. LG Chem is legit and will be around as will Panasonic who actually made the first Tesla batteries. Tesla batteries today is a variant of Panasonic under license from Panasonic. From testing and reading the LG Chem batteries are a better product from a company that will be around if a war in Korea does not occur. I have sold all my LG Stock.

Hey Merry Christmas Solar Panel Talkers, thanks to everyone who puts their 2 cents in around the place it is very much appreciated, thank you. Have fun and stay safe through the festive season, CHEERS

Back at you and your country is in my prayers. Merry Christmas to all and a Happy New Year.

[solar pete]

The Telsla battery (10kW/hr) is being sold for 10K here installed, we are not selling them as they have formed some type of deal with a few large companies that do other things as well as solar. I heard the other day that the customers are being told that a boat load of batterys is due to arrive late Feb 18 and they should be getting installed in March.

We are advising the bulk of our clients to wait a bit as the prices for batterys should come down in the next couple of years, but even then some people want to be early adopters so we can get LG Chem batteries for those guys.

Hey Merry Christmas Solar Panel Talkers, thanks to everyone who puts their 2 cents in around the place it is very much appreciated, thank you. Have fun and stay safe through the festive season, CHEERS

[SunEagle]

Well it hasn't collapsed yet and a lot of people are wanting to buy one of his battery's down under, time will tell.

I am happy that the system "down under" is up and running but what other products that were supposed to be built and shipped by Tesla get delayed to make that big system work?

Sure who wouldn't want a battery system for their home. Just don't get in line and pay up front for a future battery that may or may not be available to you in the time that Tesla advertises.

[solar pete]

Well it hasn't collapsed yet and a lot of people are wanting to buy one of his battery's down under, time will tell.

[Sunking]

OK, so let's compute the Cost per KWh assuming ...
The battery bank only lasts 5 years with a 10 year pro-rated warranty
and you replace the battery every 5 years for the next 30 years

Just one little problem. If a manufacture did that, they would be bankrupt. Musk is a professional Con Artist bilking the public for billions of dollars. Basically all of his businesses are another Enron waiting for the house of cards to collapse.

[SunEagle]

OK, so let's compute the Cost per KWh assuming ...
The battery bank only lasts 5 years with a 10 year pro-rated warranty
and you replace the battery every 5 years for the next 30 years

2017 = $5,500 Initial Cost
2022 = $2,750 50% Pro-Rated
2027 = $2,750 50% Pro-Rated
2032 = $2,750 50% Pro-Rated
2037 = $2,750 50% Pro-Rated
2042 = $2,750 50% Pro-Rated
2047 = Fails & Stop Purchase

30 years of continuous service and a new battery pack every 5 years.
Total Cost = $19,250

$0.16/KWh = $19,250 / ( 80% x 13.5 KWh ) / 365 Days / 30 Years

With enough time the Cost per KWh will approach $0.14 / KWh.
Most business and municipalities are in this for the long haul, not just the next 5 years.
Therefore, you do get what you pay for, even with a Pro-Rated Warranty.

Your opinion of "false advertisement" is completely unfounded, is simply a wild guess and is based on nothing but FUD.

What you fail to understand is ... this battery bank actually has a higher "internal" capacity than 13.5 KWh.
It is the under-voltage software that prevents you from ever using more than 13.5 KWh,
even though the battery bank is capable of providing more than 13.5 KWh.
As the Battery Bank ages ... the real "internal capacity" will decrease over time.
But because of this "hidden initial extra capacity" the battery bank can easily supply 13.5 KWh for the first 5 years.
After approximately 5 years ... the "internal capacity" will be down to about 13.5 KWh ( the usable capacity )
After 10 years ... the "internal capacity" will be down to 70% of the RATED 13.5 KWh capacity = End-Of-Life.
And that is how Tesla can have a 10 Year guarantee.

We always say, "The manufacture's warranty will indicate the expected life of the battery bank, not the cycle life graphs".
But now you think, this is no longer true but yet you provide no facts.

Well you did the math and I have to admit it does make sense that a Li battery will be a good long term investment.

Maybe I am very skeptic of some things based on a number of my experiences with products advertising their "long life" and failing miserably.

It may be time that someone has done the work to build a better mouse trap. Time will tell but I hope you are right and I am wrong.

[NEOH]

It is my opinion that things advertised to last X years that don't is really false advertising even if they are covered by a warranty. Which IMO would probably be pro rated so you will never get back exactly what you paid for in the first place.

If those batteries perform as stated for 10 years then it may be the first time any battery has done so but stranger things have happened.

OK, so let's compute the Cost per KWh assuming ...
The battery bank only lasts 5 years with a 10 year pro-rated warranty
and you replace the battery every 5 years for the next 30 years

2017 = $5,500 Initial Cost
2022 = $2,750 50% Pro-Rated
2027 = $2,750 50% Pro-Rated
2032 = $2,750 50% Pro-Rated
2037 = $2,750 50% Pro-Rated
2042 = $2,750 50% Pro-Rated
2047 = Fails & Stop Purchase

30 years of continuous service and a new battery pack every 5 years.
Total Cost = $19,250

$0.16/KWh = $19,250 / ( 80% x 13.5 KWh ) / 365 Days / 30 Years

With enough time the Cost per KWh will approach $0.14 / KWh.
Most business and municipalities are in this for the long haul, not just the next 5 years.
Therefore, you do get what you pay for, even with a Pro-Rated Warranty.

Your opinion of "false advertisement" is completely unfounded, is simply a wild guess and is based on nothing but FUD.

What you fail to understand is ... this battery bank actually has a higher "internal" capacity than 13.5 KWh.
It is the under-voltage software that prevents you from ever using more than 13.5 KWh,
even though the battery bank is capable of providing more than 13.5 KWh.
As the Battery Bank ages ... the real "internal capacity" will decrease over time.
But because of this "hidden initial extra capacity" the battery bank can easily supply 13.5 KWh for the first 5 years.
After approximately 5 years ... the "internal capacity" will be down to about 13.5 KWh ( the usable capacity )
After 10 years ... the "internal capacity" will be down to 70% of the RATED 13.5 KWh capacity = End-Of-Life.
And that is how Tesla can have a 10 Year guarantee.

We always say, "The manufacture's warranty will indicate the expected life of the battery bank, not the cycle life graphs".
But now you think, this is no longer true but yet you provide no facts.

[DanKegel]

Here's a tidbit about how the battery is doing in practice.

There's a big coal plant 600 miles away from the Tesla battery that seems to go offline now and then,
e.g. on 20 Nov (before tesla went online): reneweconomy.com.au/another-coal-unit-falls-over-leaving-victoria-power-supply-at-risk-10440/

When it went offline again last week, the Tesla battery responded within milliseconds with a few megawatts to help keep grid frequency up for a few seconds until other units could come online.
A small but useful contribution.
reneweconomy.com.au/tesla-big-battery-outsmarts-lumbering-coal-units-after-loy-yang-trips-70003/

[SunEagle]

Who cares if it does or does not?
If it does not then it will be replaced under Warranty.
Either way, it does not change the Cost per KWHr.

I am posting facts.
You are posting opinion.

$0.14/KWh = $5,500 / ( 80% x 13.5 KWh ) / 365 Days / 10 Years

It is my opinion that things advertised to last X years that don't is really false advertising even if they are covered by a warranty. Which IMO would probably be pro rated so you will never get back exactly what you paid for in the first place.

If those batteries perform as stated for 10 years then it may be the first time any battery has done so but stranger things have happened.

[J.P.M.]

Who cares if it does or does not?
If it does not then it will be replaced under Warranty.
Either way, it does not change the Cost per KWHr.

I am posting facts.
You are posting opinion.

$0.14/KWh = $5,500 / ( 80% x 13.5 KWh ) / 365 Days / 10 Years

I'd care. I expect some reasonable expectation that a product will meet claims made about it by the seller.

As for facts, they often have a way of turning into opinion, interpretation, conjecture or wishful SWAGS.

I'd suggest one other and perhaps more meaningful measure of a per kWh cost might be a life cycle cost per kWh of installed capacity, perhaps expressed in terms of LCOE. Such things are based on assumptions and therefore not fact, just (hopefully) informed opinion.

As for facts, my lowest cost per kWh on my bill is currently $0.26769/kWh. That's a fact.

$67,000,000 to build a 100 MW CH4 peaker and it's operating cost looks closer to opinion than fact.

Whether or not Tesla or it's surviving entities, or it's batteries, or anyone else's will be around to honor a warranty, or if a product will survive 80 % cyclic discharge is a matter yet to be determined and therefore probably something many folks would not call fact.

I see little difference between what you are posting here and opinion.

[NEOH]

All I am saying is lets find out in 5 years if that battery is still producing 80% of it's rated output daily. If not then the cost per kWh is higher then your estimation.

Who cares if it does or does not?
If it does not then it will be replaced under Warranty.
Either way, it does not change the Cost per KWHr.

I am posting facts.
You are posting opinion.

$0.14/KWh = $5,500 / ( 80% x 13.5 KWh ) / 365 Days / 10 Years

[SunEagle]

There is no "big question".
Your "guess" is wrong.
The cost per KW is not much higher than $0.14.

$0.14/KWh = $5,500 / ( 80% x 13.5 KWh ) / 365 Days / 10 Years

All I am saying is lets find out in 5 years if that battery is still producing 80% of it's rated output daily. If not then the cost per kWh is higher then your estimation.

[NEOH]

The big question is can you really use that pack at 80% discharge every day for 10 years or is it really less? My guess is less and that will raise the cost per kWh up to much higher than $0.14.

There is no "big question".
Your "guess" is wrong.
The cost per KW is not much higher than $0.14.

$0.14/KWh = $5,500 / ( 80% x 13.5 KWh ) / 365 Days / 10 Years

[SunEagle]

"... $5,500 for 13.5kwhr, so $407/kwhr for just the battery ..."

I don't think $407/KWh is correct because the battery is rechargeable.
You can use 80% of that 13.45 KWh every night for 10 years.

$0.14/KWh = $5,500 / ( 80% x 13.5 KWh ) / 365 Days / 10 Years

And Power Packs are cheaper per KWh, than Power Walls

The big question is can you really use that pack at 80% discharge every day for 10 years or is it really less? My guess is less and that will raise the cost per kWh up to much higher than $0.14.

[NEOH]

Well that kWh price seems a little high to me to justify out of my pocket.

"... $5,500 for 13.5kwhr, so $407/kwhr for just the battery ..."

I don't think $407/KWh is correct because the battery is rechargeable.
You can use 80% of that 13.45 KWh every night for 10 years.

$0.14/KWh = $5,500 / ( 80% x 13.5 KWh ) / 365 Days / 10 Years

And Power Packs are cheaper per KWh, than Power Walls