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  • #16
    Originally posted by ANIKHTOS View Post
    and as i said we end up paying 30 cent euro per kw
    because of all the extras we have to pay with the electric bill
    So what. Why do you want to pay 4 to 6 times more than that all up front in cold hard cash in 5 year increments?

    What you are saying is foolish. Sure electricity is 4 times higher there than the USA, but so are the batteries and everything else it takes to make a solar system. In Greece for you to have a solar system to produce 10 Kwh per day if bought in the USA would cost you roughly $16,000 USD with $11,000 of that in batteries all up front in cash. That does not include thee extra $5000 to $7000 in other equipment and material to make it work. In about 5 years you get to buy another battery at even higher cost al up front in cash.

    In Greece it will cost you several times more. You are looking at $60,000 to replace $4/day in electricity. Hope you are very rich and never need to work another day in your life. Otherwise batteries don't taste very good when you are hungry, and they don't work worth a damn keeping you warm and rain off your head. You might think we are giving you a hard time an you would be right to prevent you from doing something extremely stupid.

    But if you insist, we will help you now that you know how foolish it is.
    MSEE, PE

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by ANIKHTOS View Post
      i do not live in usa
      i live in Greece
      and the country now is in mess

      .....

      are you know serious of how much energy takes to make a battery???
      a 12 volt 200 ah battery takes how much energy?
      which you are going to use for 5 years
      lets say you use 40 ah per day that 480 watt per day thats 876kw in end of life

      so according to you the battery will cost us 1314kw to make?????'
      For me, 876 kWh purchased from my utility at $0.12/kWh = $105. The cost of a 12volt 200 Ah battery ~ $300.

      So just the battery cost is almost 3 times what I would spend purchasing that 876kWh or for that $300 I could have purchase 2500kWh at $0.12/kWh.

      How do I save money generating my own power from batteries?

      Comment


      • #18
        hello

        Originally posted by SunEagle View Post
        For me, 876 kWh purchased from my utility at $0.12/kWh = $105. The cost of a 12volt 200 Ah battery ~ $300.

        So just the battery cost is almost 3 times what I would spend purchasing that 876kWh or for that $300 I could have purchase 2500kWh at $0.12/kWh.

        How do I save money generating my own power from batteries?
        welll different people
        in different locations
        have different outcomes
        while you pay 0,12 dollars per kw i have to pay 0,3 euro per kilowatt so that 34 cents at your country currency
        while a battery just a very fast check 12v 200ah costs 289 euros 322 usd

        so in my country the 322 dollars to buy the battery can buy me 947kw so do you see a difference????

        while you say or me its 3 times more expensive for my side
        its 8% more expensive from battery side

        and thats how situation is right now
        if tomorrow all the extra taxes you get in electric bill come to an independent bill
        then cost will go to 0.12 euro per killowat given current prices

        so if electric bill is only electric then situation here will be like the situation in your country

        and in spain they talk to but a new law that taxes sun and effectively makes you go even in 20 years of operation
        and i am talking for having solar panels selling energy to the grid 20 years to get even with life expectancy of panels 25 lol
        also in the same law all off grid houses will have to get on grid!?!?! and pay an electric company

        i do not know the quality of power in your country put here the quality sucks
        and what sucks even more even if your things are toasted from the bad quality you can not sue the company to get
        your items replaced by them
        maybe in your county you can have liable the company but not in here
        it is insane
        yes it is
        but thats the situation as it is now
        maybe later the poco will be liable and thus the will provide better quality than the one we have now

        and of course what it end ups is what you can afford to pay

        i talk with people going off grid in greece and they say no i want to use my ac and i say to them okey
        when was the last time you used it
        they say 3 years ago
        i can not afford to use it lol
        another said and if i want to use a melding machine that consumes 10k what i will do
        i ask him how often you use one
        and he said never

        you know we can start having hypothetical conversations or more realistic ones
        yes i want to use ac but it i can not afford to pay it even when connecting to a poco i can not use the ac as an argument to stay on grid
        and since that people are on pension their financial is not going to improve with time

        and yes for some people makes completely no economical sense to go off grid
        and yes lots of people are hyped and they think going off grid will be able with 2.00 0 euros or less

        so yes every case needs to take down the numbers and see what he gains what he loose.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by ANIKHTOS View Post
          welll different people
          in different locations
          have different outcomes
          while you pay 0,12 dollars per kw i have to pay 0,3 euro per kilowatt so that 34 cents at your country currency
          while a battery just a very fast check 12v 200ah costs 289 euros 322 usd

          so in my country the 322 dollars to buy the battery can buy me 947kw so do you see a difference????

          while you say or me its 3 times more expensive for my side
          its 8% more expensive from battery side

          and thats how situation is right now
          if tomorrow all the extra taxes you get in electric bill come to an independent bill
          then cost will go to 0.12 euro per killowat given current prices

          so if electric bill is only electric then situation here will be like the situation in your country

          and in spain they talk to but a new law that taxes sun and effectively makes you go even in 20 years of operation
          and i am talking for having solar panels selling energy to the grid 20 years to get even with life expectancy of panels 25 lol
          also in the same law all off grid houses will have to get on grid!?!?! and pay an electric company

          i do not know the quality of power in your country put here the quality sucks
          and what sucks even more even if your things are toasted from the bad quality you can not sue the company to get
          your items replaced by them
          maybe in your county you can have liable the company but not in here
          it is insane
          yes it is
          but thats the situation as it is now
          maybe later the poco will be liable and thus the will provide better quality than the one we have now

          and of course what it end ups is what you can afford to pay

          i talk with people going off grid in greece and they say no i want to use my ac and i say to them okey
          when was the last time you used it
          they say 3 years ago
          i can not afford to use it lol
          another said and if i want to use a melding machine that consumes 10k what i will do
          i ask him how often you use one
          and he said never

          you know we can start having hypothetical conversations or more realistic ones
          yes i want to use ac but it i can not afford to pay it even when connecting to a poco i can not use the ac as an argument to stay on grid
          and since that people are on pension their financial is not going to improve with time

          and yes for some people makes completely no economical sense to go off grid
          and yes lots of people are hyped and they think going off grid will be able with 2.00 0 euros or less

          so yes every case needs to take down the numbers and see what he gains what he loose.
          I just did the calculation with only the battery cost. There is also the cost of the pv panels, battery charger, DC to AC inverter along with cabling and fusing. So the up front cost will be much more than 3 times the cost of purchasing power from my utility. And a 200Ah battery may cost me only $300 today it will be more in 5 years. The costs keep adding up.

          I am lucky because my power quality is pretty good. But the chance of it stopping is high during bad weather. Then I would use an emergency generator which will provide me much more power than a battery system for much less cost including the fuel to run it.

          You may have a different situation with your electric cost and power quality but in my opinion you will still end up spending a lot more for a solar/battery system then just purchasing power from your utility.
          Last edited by SunEagle; 09-24-2015, 08:48 AM. Reason: spelling

          Comment


          • #20
            hello

            Originally posted by SunEagle View Post
            I just did the calculation with only the battery cost. There is also the cost of the pv panels, battery charger, DC to AC inverter along with cabling and fusing. So the up front cost will be much more than 3 times the cost of purchasing power from my utility. And a 200Ah battery may cost me only $300 today it will be more in 5 years. The costs keep adding up.

            I am lucky because my power quality is pretty good. But the chance of it stopping is high during bad weather. Then I would use an emergency generator which will provide me much more power than a battery system for much less cost including the fuel to run it.

            You may have a different citation with your electric cost and power quality but in my opinion you will still end up spending a lot more for a solar/battery system then just purchasing power from your utility.
            well thats why you were learning maths in school
            you find out the variables
            you crunch the numbers
            and then you make your decision
            thats why i am here research research research finding out the variables

            i do not want to be surprise you forgot that now you need tons more money to do that

            form how you connect the batteries to every aspect research
            even something simple like how is the best way to connect the batteries can be a cause to make it worth while or not

            going off grid or not i will still make a small pack for an emergency case the electricity will be off from a storm or what ever

            the battery aspect is so huge
            different chemistries, different capacities available, different voltage, safety of batteries, discharge rate of batteries
            cost of batteries

            and of course how much money you have
            i know the best is to buy all batteries at the same time
            but if you can not afford them what will be the second best option to start a pack and increase it as time passes?

            thats also an interesting topic
            also to there are circuits you can use to connect multiple strings and draw an equal amount from each one or if 1 input is way higher they only draw from there
            when the volts equalize they draw with the others

            there are interest things out there that increase the cost the complexity of the installation but also increase the possibilities and management of the installation

            but the more circuits you add the more power you loose to them
            so it is always you gain something you loose something
            they real question is what i real must have and what i can live without it

            life is compromising
            its like poker you play with the hand you are given not with the hand you wished to be given

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by SunEagle View Post
              You may have a different citation with your electric cost and power quality but in my opinion you will still end up spending a lot more for a solar/battery system then just purchasing power from your utility.
              That's what most people don't want to hear! It can't be!!

              Once that fact is accepted, if they continue on, they try to do the cheapskate / lowball route, and end up paying even MORE when the junk fails and has to get replaced with quality gear.

              Oh well, we try.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Sunking View Post
                Batteries are a very mature product. It is called inflation. Anything you buy today will cost more 5 years from now.
                FLA and AGM is a mature product. Not much happening in LiFePO4 either. But the cost for the other lithium-chemistries (NCA,NMC etc.) is dropping like a rock. The PowerWall is introduced at $3000 for the daily cycle version, my guess is that this price will be halved in a few years and larger versions being available for even lower price per kWh. Competitors are launching similar products in spades. Mainly targeted at grid-tie applications but surely off-grid users will move in the same direction.

                In 10 years I doubt anyone will be buying new lead acid banks.

                Comment


                • #23
                  OH kill me now!

                  In one paragraph, you've just pushed about 40 of my hot-buttons with speculative investor-bait. It's all been covered before in other threads.

                  Why does everyone feel like it's ok to [b]derail a subforum for lifepo4[/b] with every other conceivable chemistry out there?

                  It's rude, and quite frankly BORING.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by SunEagle View Post
                    I just did the calculation with only the battery cost. There is also the cost of the pv panels, battery charger, DC to AC inverter along with cabling and fusing. So the up front cost will be much more than 3 times the cost of purchasing power from my utility. And a 200Ah battery may cost me only $300 today it will be more in 5 years. The costs keep adding up.

                    I am lucky because my power quality is pretty good. But the chance of it stopping is high during bad weather. Then I would use an emergency generator which will provide me much more power than a battery system for much less cost including the fuel to run it.

                    You may have a different situation with your electric cost and power quality but in my opinion you will still end up spending a lot more for a solar/battery system then just purchasing power from your utility.
                    I think there may be some circumstances where batteries could make sense in a very limited scope. Say for example if someone is getting into the higher tiers during the month because of air conditioning in a hot climate. If they had a very small system that was primarily used for backup and then generated power during times when they would be reducing tier4, a case could be made for recouping the money. But I agree, there is no way to generate one's own power cheaper, on the average, than the POCO.

                    What do you think?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by lkruper View Post
                      I think there may be some circumstances where batteries could make sense in a very limited scope. Say for example if someone is getting into the higher tiers during the month because of air conditioning in a hot climate. If they had a very small system that was primarily used for backup and then generated power during times when they would be reducing tier4, a case could be made for recouping the money. But I agree, there is no way to generate one's own power cheaper, on the average, than the POCO.

                      What do you think?
                      I agree. That for some people in the US, like Hawaii and CA the cost of electric at the higher tiers make energy storage look better. But for most of the US the cost of storage is still way too high except if you are totally off grid and then it doesn't matter since you can't purchase from a POCO.

                      If energy storage is important then finding the right chemistry (including LiFePO4) should be considered as long as you take into account the cost and longevity of the system.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by SunEagle View Post
                        I agree. That for some people in the US, like Hawaii and CA the cost of electric at the higher tiers make energy storage look better. But for most of the US the cost of storage is still way too high except if you are totally off grid and then it doesn't matter since you can't purchase from a POCO.

                        If energy storage is important then finding the right chemistry (including LiFePO4) should be considered as long as you take into account the cost and longevity of the system.
                        My tiers are 0.15, 0.19, 0.26 and 0.31. When we get +100 temps for a month or more in a row, I make it into tier 4.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by lkruper View Post
                          My tiers are 0.15, 0.19, 0.26 and 0.31. When we get +100 temps for a month or more in a row, I make it into tier 4.
                          I see that can get expensive even getting power from your POCO.

                          Still I would point out that the cost of an energy storage system cost may be a lot more then compared to finding low priority items in your home to turn off so you get back to a lower tier would be much less expensive.

                          It comes down to which is the highest priority. Being able to run all your electrical equipment when you want to or saving money on your electric bill.

                          I am not saying turning off electrical appliances would be easy but if the high cost of an electric bill is hard to handle then maybe not running all the tvs, lights and AC system at the same time is something that could be handled.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by SunEagle View Post
                            I see that can get expensive even getting power from your POCO.

                            Still I would point out that the cost of an energy storage system cost may be a lot more then compared to finding low priority items in your home to turn off so you get back to a lower tier would be much less expensive.

                            It comes down to which is the highest priority. Being able to run all your electrical equipment when you want to or saving money on your electric bill.

                            I am not saying turning off electrical appliances would be easy but if the high cost of an electric bill is hard to handle then maybe not running all the tvs, lights and AC system at the same time is something that could be handled.
                            I am trying to understand the CA TOU from SCE, and it looks like in the lowest tier the cost is 11 cents / kW but with baseline it is minus 10 cents so that the cost is 1 cent per kW (at night). So my cost to run a theoretical 100w load during waking hours (say 14) is $15.00 per month and virtually free if all run at the lowest tier. So if I could charge batteries at night and run during the day I can offload the cost. That is 42 kW per month.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by lkruper View Post
                              I am trying to understand the CA TOU from SCE, and it looks like in the lowest tier the cost is 11 cents / kW but with baseline it is minus 10 cents so that the cost is 1 cent per kW (at night). So my cost to run a theoretical 100w load during waking hours (say 14) is $15.00 per month and virtually free if all run at the lowest tier. So if I could charge batteries at night and run during the day I can offload the cost. That is 42 kW per month.
                              If the battery cost $0.50 per kwh, how do you save money even if you get the night energy for free? What we try to do is load shifting, we use a lot of power when the sun is shinning and use very little at night so the battery bank don't have to be as large as it should and therefor cut down the cost of the battery per kwh.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by paulcheung View Post
                                If the battery cost $0.50 per kwh, how do you save money even if you get the night energy for free? What we try to do is load shifting, we use a lot of power when the sun is shinning and use very little at night so the battery bank don't have to be as large as it should and therefor cut down the cost of the battery per kwh.

                                It's NOT something I am terribly interested in doing, but I calculate that 2 Trojan 105 batteries cost $280 and if they give 1200 cycles will produce 1620 kW in their lifetime. That comes out to 0.17 per kW. I am still checking my calculations, but at my baseline I can get a kW at 0.01 and use it during the day when it would cost me 0.46 or at 0.30. Still checking my calcs....

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