lithium maganese cells

[PNjunction]

All good and sane paramaters for non-lifepo4 chemistry certainly.

Still, we are dealing with specialty cells with only two recognized sales outlets since Nissan does not sell to the public directly (unless you turn in your old existing leaf batts).

1) From the back of a guy's van down by the river at midnight who knows a guy who knows a guy...

2) Hoping that the salvage yard that turns them over to a reseller has a new influx of crash victims to replenish stock. Something sick about crossing one's fingers over that to build your system. But that's me.

Speaking of crashes, I don't know how well those leaf cells are designed to hold up to intense shock. Certainly they look well mounted, but high-g impact can't be good for them. Maybe they survive well. What we do know when you subject cells to extreme shock is that there is a possibility that the anode / cathode alignment is now askew leading to "overhang" problems. Early counterfeiters and cheapskate lifepo4 manufacturers in the early days didn't do overhang properly (made them the exact same dimension or misaligned them), which led to dendrite problems along the edges and so forth. Getting a crashed cell to me would be like buying new ones and throwing them on the floor before installation.

I guess I'm just trying to concentrate on easily available lithium batteries that are available to the common man through normal outlets. Ok, my rant is over.

[jkirkebo]

I guess I'm just trying to concentrate on easily available lithium batteries that are available to the common man through normal outlets. Ok, my rant is over.

That's probably one of the differences between Norway and the US. Larger sized lithium batteries is not available through normal outlets here, you have to import them yourself. And shipping lithium is sometimes quite the hassle and also expensive. While cells from wrecked hybrids and EVs are readily available many places.

There is two outlets for these; the guys that buy up batteries, dismantle them, test the modules and sell them in the quantity you want. This costs more of course. Then there is the wrecking yards which will happily sell you a complete battery pack for cheap but you'll only be able to do a quick visual check and measure the whole pack voltage. A bit more risk but with a high chance of paying off in reduced cost.

[PNjunction]

That's probably one of the differences between Norway and the US. Larger sized lithium batteries is not available through normal outlets here, you have to import them yourself. And shipping lithium is sometimes quite the hassle and also expensive. While cells from wrecked hybrids and EVs are readily available many places.

Maybe you haven't tried hard enough. Here are just TWO places that you might be able to get them from in Norway easily, legally, and holy cow - with a warrantee:

http://www.ev-power.eu/

and

http://3xe-electric-cars.com/get-into-store/lithium-battery-lifepo4/winston-battery-40ah-lifepo4-lithium-battery-detail

Your argument held water about 8-10 years ago. Not today.

[SunEagle]

That's probably one of the differences between Norway and the US. Larger sized lithium batteries is not available through normal outlets here, you have to import them yourself. And shipping lithium is sometimes quite the hassle and also expensive. While cells from wrecked hybrids and EVs are readily available many places.

There is two outlets for these; the guys that buy up batteries, dismantle them, test the modules and sell them in the quantity you want. This costs more of course. Then there is the wrecking yards which will happily sell you a complete battery pack for cheap but you'll only be able to do a quick visual check and measure the whole pack voltage. A bit more risk but with a high chance of paying off in reduced cost.

Look before this thread gets out of hand I will openly say that using lithium batteries from wrecked or out of service EV's for your home energy storage system is just plain unsafe and I will not endorse it on this forum.

If you want to gamble with your life just to save a few dollars then go for it. But I will start posting against you and anyone else that states and encourages the use of what I feel is a very unsafe practice.

[Sunking]

Look before this thread gets out of hand I will openly say that using lithium batteries from wrecked or out of service EV's for your home energy storage system is just plain unsafe and I will not endorse it on this forum.

You should not endorse or allow it to be seen. Has a law suit written all over it. Especially when a official of the Forum openly acknowledges and admits it, and then allows it to run. Any 1st year lawyer would win that court claim for damages.

[jkirkebo]

Maybe you haven't tried hard enough. Here are just TWO places that you might be able to get them from in Norway easily, legally, and holy cow - with a warrantee:

http://www.ev-power.eu/

and

http://3xe-electric-cars.com/get-into-store/lithium-battery-lifepo4/winston-battery-40ah-lifepo4-lithium-battery-detail

Your argument held water about 8-10 years ago. Not today.

That is not locally at all, I could just as easily buy from China. Still import hassle, shipping hassle, VAT to pay and customs taxes which makes it a very expensive proposition. Buying 35kWh of LiFePO4 from EV-Power will cost me more than $20,000 delivered, while I paid $3750 for my Leaf modules. Well over 5x more expensive and thus not a viable option. If that was the only option I would still use my old inadequate FLA bank and running the generator _a lot_. A warranty is worth maybe 20% additonal cost for me, not 450%. And since shipping a single failed LiFePO4 cell back costs a fortune the warranty is'nt worth much if the seller is not local.

(Local defined as in the same country at least, preferably not further away than 100 miles)

[jkirkebo]

Look before this thread gets out of hand I will openly say that using lithium batteries from wrecked or out of service EV's for your home energy storage system is just plain unsafe and I will not endorse it on this forum.

If you want to gamble with your life just to save a few dollars then go for it. But I will start posting against you and anyone else that states and encourages the use of what I feel is a very unsafe practice.

I would not put any kind of batteries in large quantities inside my house. Especially not FLA which puts out hydrogen gas. If I were to have batteries at home they would be in a separate building like a concrete shed. If one follows that practice every battery is "safe" in the context of house fires etc.

I'd maybe make an exception for the PowerWall as it is a finished product and in the same category as an EV, battery wise. But I would certainly make no distinction between for example LiFePO4 and LiMn.

[PNjunction]

But I would certainly make no distinction between for example LiFePO4 and LiMn.

Wait, what? Other than different charging specs, are you saying that you are disputing the reason why lifepo4 is the SAFEST variant of lithium chemistry currently available? Please tell me I'm wrong.

Still, we're dealing with deflectionary tactics now to go back to pumping your Nissan cells.

[jkirkebo]

Wait, what? Other than different charging specs, are you saying that you are disputing the reason why lifepo4 is the SAFEST variant of lithium chemistry currently available? Please tell me I'm wrong.

Safest yes, but not by any amount that matters much to me. Implementing proper safety devices will in my opinion make LiMn at least 99% as safe as LiFePO4. A charger with a conservative voltage cut-off combined with a charging safety relay controlled by the BMS will more or less eliminate the possibility of overcharge. Two levels of protection and a lot of voltage headroom if one of them fails.
What's left are the possibility of a short making fireworks, especially during installation. That possibility is in my opinion worst with FLA as they can explode and spray you with acid. Also FLA needs a lot of maintenance while lithium can be left alone, which menas lower risk for shorts (like dropping a wrench on the battery poles).
Heat problems from charging should be non-existant in any off-grid applications as charging is VERY slow compared to for example EV applications. Usually no more than C/5 maximum, while EV charging can be 10x faster.

[Sunking]

Looks like we have another slick Willy

[SunEagle]

I would not put any kind of batteries in large quantities inside my house. Especially not FLA which puts out hydrogen gas. If I were to have batteries at home they would be in a separate building like a concrete shed. If one follows that practice every battery is "safe" in the context of house fires etc.

I'd maybe make an exception for the PowerWall as it is a finished product and in the same category as an EV, battery wise. But I would certainly make no distinction between for example LiFePO4 and LiMn.

A PowerWall product is manufactured under strict safety guidelines and protocols. That is a completely different end result then the one you are talking about using used EV batteries which are unsafe.

Building a battery system out of junked parts and putting them in a concrete shed, barn or bunker is still a path for a potential disaster.

[SunEagle]

Yet, another post that has no relevance to the thread meant to cause dissension.

You know for some reason I did not equate that post mentioning a "slick Willy" to you.

But agree that it and your post is off topic and can cause dissension so please let it go.

I do not want to see another escalations of name calling posts.

[Sunking]

But agree that it and your post is off topic and can cause dissension so please let it go. .

How is it off topic? You have another person coming into the forum advocating unsafe practices that can result in property damage, injury and even death. The Forum endorses it by allowing it to run and be seen. The dissention you speak of is not caused from member raising RED FLAGS and WARNINGS of hacks and unsafe practices, it the incompetence and endorsement of the Administration staff allowing such post to even be seen in public. That makes Administration Liable for damages. When someone listens to one of the Slick Willies and implements the suggestion and gets hurt, Administration is liable for all damages. Why? Because you endorsed it and promoted the practice.

Why is that so hard for the Administration staff to understand those simple facts? You do not have to give any notice or reason to censor and ban any member you want out of here. There is no such thing as Free Speech in a private forum.

So now what we have here is the forum endorsing and promoting unsafe practices of taking salvage batteries from wrecked cars and placing them into service in our homes.

You expect that to go unchallenged? Me gotta feeling this Forum is ripe for a huge law suite.

[SunEagle]

How is it off topic? You have another person coming into the forum advocating unsafe practices that can result in property damage, injury and even death. The Forum endorses it by allowing it to run and be seen. The dissention you speak of is not caused from member raising RED FLAGS and WARNINGS of hacks and unsafe practices, it the incompetence and endorsement of the Administration staff allowing such post to even be seen in public. That makes Administration Liable for damages. When someone listens to one of the Slick Willies and implements the suggestion and gets hurt, Administration is liable for all damages. Why? Because you endorsed it and promoted the practice.

Why is that so hard for the Administration staff to understand those simple facts? You do not have to give any notice or reason to censor and ban any member you want out of here. There is no such thing as Free Speech in a private forum.

So now what we have here is the forum endorsing and promoting unsafe practices of taking salvage batteries from wrecked cars and placing them into service in our homes.

You expect that to go unchallenged? Me gotta feeling this Forum is ripe for a huge law suite.

Sunking

Please simmer down. I do not agree with jkirkebo and his plans to use those junk batteries and have provided my postings to say it is not safe and I DO NOT ENDORSE his plans. I have in another thread already informed him I would delete all postings concerning junk EV batteries and will continue to monitor his postings on that thread, on this thread or anywhere else he plans on providing unsafe practices. And if it continues he will be dealt with.

What I meant about being "off topic" was a reference to name calling which IMO is worse to this Forum then some things and in the past has created a lot of anger which I do not want repeated.

I respect your knowledge and experience concerning batteries and solar technology and look forward to reading more and learning from you. I do not want to get into a fight or take this Forum in the wrong direction. So please help me.

[Mike90250]

.....
I'd maybe make an exception for the PowerWall as it is a finished product and in the same category as an EV, battery wise. But I would certainly make no distinction between for example LiFePO4 and LiMn.

polishing a turd, still leaves you with a turd. PowerWalls are vaporware, and sized too small, unless you want to purchase several of them.