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  • Morningstar MPPY-60 & LiFeP04 batteries solar charging / WHY CANCEL my thread

    [I][U][COLOR="#FF0000"]edit;
    title to read why lock my thread...I made an error and said why cancel....my mistake sorry.[/COLOR][/U][/I]

    Hello Russ,

    Please unlock my thread. You closed it due to a member posting too much BS.

    Certainly not me and not a couple of others, BS posters need to be identified and shut down for all our benefits.

    Sites like this are the proving ground for many would be self promoters who meet with people in their field and need to establish fact from fiction. We the normal and not so normal consumer need to see this and learn.

    They should be identified and blocked as they will continue to post BS on other sites.

    Posting in the forum I refered to to my initial thread here has already been done on "Cruisers Forum " by electrodacus where he has now changed his ID from electrodacus to ele2014.

    He has already been challenged there by the pros and with time guys like me will be able to see through the technical BS, that is accompanied with the good details. " IF " this is the BS you are refering to.

    I type real slow and have taken the time to post here seeking info and have highlighted that LiFep04 batteries are slowly becoming popular on boats and are a serious future consideration for other applications as well. I have no commercial interest and need the help.

    I do not have the technical knowledge of many and cannot point out the BS, however I do see quite clearly the self promotion posted on different sites.

    I also see a tiny response to my thread and perhaps someone surfing the web will find your site and post their MPPT settings using the Morningstar MPPT60...of which I have 3 in my garage still in their boxes and I am picking up my solar panels this week as they have arrived at the freight forwarders as scheduled from AltEstore.

    I do have the system I talk about and will get the settings done right by summers end. The spring has come and we will begin to launch our boats soon and my solar project will begin. I have purchased all items mentioned above
    and really wish that my thread be not blocked.

    I would have posted you a personal message but the settings say I need 10 posts to do that and I do not yet have that.

    If in any way you think my personal posts contain BS please be advised any BS you may feel I have posted is due to me being an non electrical/electronic person.

    [B]BUT[/B]

    I DO HAVE these LiFeP04 batteries and did live with them installed last season AND that is f[B]irst hand been there done that[/B] info I am posting.

    I did spend a couple of hundred hours disassembling, cleaning, sample testing, group designing, assembling into blocks of 14 batteries, recharging, and installing in my boat the 84 batteries. I hired an electronincs engineer to set up the parameters of charging I learned on other sites and I watched them very closely 24/7 for 3 months as they charged and discharged as I lived "off grid" as you would say.I am still learning and the only thing I am certain of is the great advantage they give me in power to weight/physical size I used to get with lead batteries...perhaps they will even be cheaper to own ... time will tell, but I am betting there will be no comparison.

    To some this is worth something.

    I cannot see why you would shut down a thread with this info , rather than just ban a particular member or advise him here he will be banned.

    [B]Sorry for the rambeling and thank you for your consideration,
    [/B]
    Best Regards,
    Pete
    Last edited by Mike90250; 05-15-2014, 06:49 PM. Reason: incorrect in saying cancel / thread was locked only // renamed -Mod

  • #2
    Hi Pete - OK and please accept my apology. I am just going to close the door on electrothingy - the cold winter weather up north apparently does something to peoples minds - all sorts of freaky ideas come up over a winter.

    I have reopened the thread.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Comment


    • #3
      THANK you Solar Panel Talk !

      Originally posted by russ View Post
      Hi Pete - OK and please accept my apology. I am just going to close the door on electrothingy - the cold winter weather up north apparently does something to peoples minds - all sorts of freaky ideas come up over a winter.

      I have reopened the thread.

      [I][COLOR="#FF0000"][SIZE=1]copied from other thread...[/SIZE][/COLOR][/I]


      Thank you Russ, Apologies greatly accepted...it has been the longest winter up here ...we use rum to keep from freezing and it effects us at times. I was fortunate to spend the last couple of months in FL and use the rum to help deal with the occasional heat spell.

      I appreciate your actions in response to my request to keep my thread open.

      I will get the answer to my inquiry somewhere, and when I do I will post it for all to see.

      Worse case scenereo I will use all the info I have collected for the custom programming of my Morningstar MPPT-60 and have it programmed as best as I can by my trusted electronics/electrical man, who is far more intelligent than I and understands these things. I know it will take fine tuning and I will do it/get it done with time.

      I am back home now, as priorities allow, I will be able to use a non MAC pc and learn.

      I will get it fully operational in a few months.

      Very best regards,
      Pete

      hopefully someone who has already done this will chime in eventually...........

      Comment


      • #4
        You'll do fine as you've done your homework. Lifepo4 makes perfect sense in this case.

        Hopefully that bank of used GBS cells were well taken care of and engineered in the first place prior to your installation of them, and not a random collection.

        The MPPT 60 will do ok, although not specifically designed for lifepo4 can be set up in such a way that it will work. In a marine environment however, I'm sure many would suggest using Genasun controllers as they were designed by a marine engineer for lifepo4. From what I've read, the start of the company was due to frustration over an existing land-based controller which failed - not because of the inability to charge, but QC issues that failed in the marine environment. Of course, their controllers now have very specific lifepo4 setups.

        Yet the key thing is that if done properly, you can get going with the MPPT60.

        Like you, when I started out small just to see if I could keep a simple powersports battery alive (see my experiments with some Shorai's here), I read that ENTIRE thread on Cruisersforum, even though I am not a sailor. While most advocate a bms, one sailor got great results from running only the 80-10% DOD range, which inspired me to do the same. So far so good, but I'm not advocating that will be sufficient for all applications:

        http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...nks-65069.html

        Another GREAT thread, especially if one just wants to experiment small scale to get some hands on is:
        http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=757934
        Of course, this is at a much smaller scale, yet the basics are the same.

        Both of the above weed out the BS, and get to the facts. I'll be interested in how it goes for you.

        Comment


        • #5
          Forgot to mention the caution about temperature-compensation with a standard CC designed for Pb batteries ...

          Most quality CC's use temperature compensation, so your tech will have to choose the HVC setting carefully. If set too low initially and the bank is brought into a hot environment, temp-comp may drop the voltage below what the bms wants to see before activating. Set too high initially, and brought into a colder environment may push the HVC too high.

          So yes, it can be done with the mppt60, just be sure you have good monitoring. Personally, I'd choose a lifepo4-specific CC designed for marine use so there is one less thing to worry about.

          UPDATE - I perused the manual for the mppt60 / 45, and it appears that if you DON'T use the remote RTS sensor, there will be no temp-comp. Good.

          Comment


          • #6
            LiFeP04 being solar charged using a Morningstarr MPPT-60

            Originally posted by PNjunction View Post
            Forgot to mention the caution about temperature-compensation with a standard CC designed for Pb batteries ...

            Most quality CC's use temperature compensation, so your tech will have to choose the HVC setting carefully. If set too low initially and the bank is brought into a hot environment, temp-comp may drop the voltage below what the bms wants to see before activating. Set too high initially, and brought into a colder environment may push the HVC too high.

            So yes, it can be done with the mppt60, just be sure you have good monitoring. Personally, I'd choose a lifepo4-specific CC designed for marine use so there is one less thing to worry about.

            UPDATE - I perused the manual for the mppt60 / 45, and it appears that if you DON'T use the remote RTS sensor, there will be no temp-comp. Good.
            Hello PNjunction,

            Thank you for your involvement and comments in this thread.

            I am glad you looked at the manual and see that it is quite flexable.

            The ammout of settings in the custom programming using a PC computor ( not a MAC computor) is impressive, you cannot see it in their manual you need to download it to a PC . I still have not done this but have seen utube videos showing the settings, and I am intimidated...NOT scared, but intimidated.
            I do not understand all there is to understand, as mentioned my background is steel.

            FYI my batteries never went over 100 degrees F and this is only when max. shore power charging near top balancing. The 48 individual bleeder boards I have installed ( soon to be 84) release heat as they bleed off charge going into their individual battery once they reach their 3.55 volt setting. This is the heat that raises the battery temp as I can put about 150 amps max into the bank. This tapers down to 20 amps and less going into all 84 batteries as we approach the 3.55 individual voltage

            I am collecting info to aid my electrical engineer/electronics man to program my MPPT-60's it as best as possible with existing pre-proven settings for LiFeP04 batteries. It is not rocket science, It is simply a " newish " application, and not my field.

            I chose this product last year in all my readings online re MPPT controllers being used by boaters. I like the steel design, they have no moving parts, they do not make noise, they were priced competitivly, the ammount of info they can give you back is impressive for system analysis and observation, both locally and remotly via the net. I oversized two for redundancy as I did not need the MPPT-60 on two sets of pannels...I could have used the MPPT-45 ...BUT...remember I am challenged electronically so fo a little more than $200.00 I standardized.

            IF my interior of my boat was to get water anywhere near where I will put these 3 Morningstarr MPPT-60 controlers THEN I have a much bigger problem than I wish to ever contimplate.

            I believe at the time Genasun did not build one large enough for my 3 x 215 watt solar panels going down to 12 volt. ( perhaps I was/am wrong) All the details of my Kyrocera Solar panels have been posted earlier.

            I am just getting my boat ready to go into the water next Wednesday so my solar project takes a back seat to spring launch . Sanding, bottom paint, waxing , etc., etc.
            Presently reinstalling my 84 batteries ( +/-3.4 volts each ) that are physically grouped into 6 sets of 14 weighing only +/- 70#each.
            Then the 84 batteries are wired with same length wires into 4 sets of 21 in parallel .
            Then the 4 sets of parallel are connected in series to give me my 12 volts, 1260 amps.
            (84 x 60 divided by 4 = 1260 amps for those who are just geting to this)

            These particular batteries have 8 holes for socket cap hex screws M4 x 8 mm long . 84 x 8 is a lot of !##@ING screws. I removed the batteries due to freezing concerns and am now removing and reinstalling all the screws with an anti sieze compond to prevent the Stainless screws reacting with the battery terminals...two days with these miniature screws ,lockwashers ,washers ,for each of the #%$dam 672 holes !!!

            OK got to go screw around and hope to reconnect my LiFeP04 battery bank Monday if all goes well.

            Sorry for the rant n tks again.
            Best Regards,
            Pete
            Last edited by Steelwrk1; 05-10-2014, 09:29 AM. Reason: comment on house bank temperature

            Comment


            • #7
              Right - those GBS screws can be a pain, but they really do help dampen any twisting torque to the terminals should the batteries be somewhat loose. Within reason of course. I didn't take a look at your interconnects (some manufacturers have braid in the middle to allow for tiny amounts of flex), nor your bank bracing for solidity, which is very important.

              With the bms boards, really you just set your HVC to what the bms board and battery specs say should be the highest voltage, and let them do their thing. Then set your end-amps to typically something like 0.1C or so before stopping the charge completely. Either that, or set it so that float is benign at something well below the normal charge. Ie, for a 12v system, if your CC has a mandatory float, I could set it to something below 13.8v so it in effect is doing nothing at that point. Your mppt60 should be flexible enough with voltage settings to handle the lifepo4 specs from your manufacturer, even though not specifically mentioned as a supported chemistry.

              The one big caution I have is that if for some reason you pull your bank down below 80% DOD, do NOT apply a full-current recharge, but keep it gentle until the bank reaches a nominal 80% DOD value, and then you can begin your normal current charge. Your monitoring / control system will help you easily avoid this state of going down the rabbit-hole of the steep discharge knee. You'll see.

              Comment


              • #8
                Cripes! now I want to know what electrodacus posted. Probably just as well I don't
                Reed Cundiff

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by reed cundiff View Post
                  Cripes! now I want to know what electrodacus posted. Probably just as well I don't
                  Reed Cundiff
                  You did not miss a lot. There was some very strong advocacy for Li batteries even at current technology and prices that many felt was over the top optimistic combined with a somewhat uncomfortable project on kickstarter.
                  There was also, however, some very good analysis of projected battery life and system cost which was accurate provided you trusted the manufacturer's specifications and curves for cycle life.
                  It just got a little heated and personal when some regulars disagreed with him.
                  SunnyBoy 3000 US, 18 BP Solar 175B panels.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hello,

                    I have Morningstar TS-60 MPPT on several boats, and for many years they have held up very well in a marine environment.

                    It was quite simple to change the settings of the unit when I switched over to LifePO4.

                    Extremely happy with Morningstar and the monitoring as well !

                    Alan

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      That Morningstar 60a mppt looks ok to me!

                      I'd set the switches for 14.0v (gel), which conveniently disables any EQ and any attempt to do a manual EQ, even though it is not at the much higher voltage of a true EQ as most of us define it. Good.

                      No need to run with the RTS temp-comp wiring since none is needed for lifepo4. Good.

                      13.7v float - that's below 13.8v, which is good since lifepo4 doesn't need float, and although I'd like to see a way to disable that, this low-voltage workaround is ok. Good.

                      For the fastest charging, I'd use the optional battery sense wires, otherwise you may enter absorb a tad earlier than desired, but not a deal-breaker. Good.

                      Not sure about needing the automatic absorb extension time if the terminal voltage falls below 12.5v the day befor, since if I do finish absorb, I don't want any extended time at the high voltage limit, where no current is flowing. Not so good. BUT, happily this coincides with my own LVD of going no lower than 12.5v under load - and usually would stop well before that anyway, like 12.8v, since I have already reached 80% capacity of the bank. Ok, not so bad now.

                      One thing to watch out for in solar with lifepo4 is not to do "mini cycles", or constantly having the bank essentially striving for 100% SOC under small loads, like constantly charging from 90-100% SOC on a regular basis. That is a LOT of time to spend at nearly a fully charged condition if you do this frequently. I try to discharge to at least 20% DOD on a cyclic basis before allowing the solar array to begin recharging. Even then, if you have the capacity, there is no need to obsess over reaching 100% SOC all the time, and a PSOC style of operation, is preferable.

                      To do that, I'd need much more configurability, but out of the box, the Morningstar mppt seems like a very workable initial solution for a Pb designed controller.

                      Comment

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