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  • Battery Care

    Greetings everyone, I'm new to the forum and have a ton of questions.
    The batteries I will be using are heavy duty truck batteries that are rated at 1400 CCA / 190AH - I currently have eight of these configured in two banks of 48v that will be in parallel. I can also gather a number of these if needed.
    I know it's frowned upon to use truck/car batteries but these seem to power my inverter nicely.
    I'll be charging the bank at up to 50A (that's only 25 A per battery). Later on I'll be adding more panels to up the charge current.

    How often will they require 'watering' ?
    Do you ever have to add additional electrolyte (H2o + H2So4) ?
    Is there a test to tell when electrolyte is needed vs water ?

    Is there such a thing as a lead-acid battery 'additive' that is recommended ?

    I was contemplating on getting the vent caps that 'claim' to reduce maintenance by 50% - anyone had experience with those?

    Thanks in Advance
    Jan

  • #2
    Originally posted by JanS48 View Post
    ... How often will they require 'watering' ?
    I top mine off every month.



    ... Do you ever have to add additional electrolyte (H2o + H2So4) ?
    No.



    ... Is there such a thing as a lead-acid battery 'additive' that is recommended ?
    I think that all 'additives' are bad.



    ... I was contemplating on getting the vent caps that 'claim' to reduce maintenance by 50% - anyone had experience with those?
    Save your money.




    4400w, Midnite Classic 150 charge-controller.

    Comment


    • #3
      since you know your system main issue I'll skip that

      Originally posted by JanS48 View Post
      How often will they require 'watering' ?
      you just need to maintain electrolyte level
      Originally posted by JanS48 View Post
      Do you ever have to add additional electrolyte (H2o + H2So4) ?
      never, distilled water only
      Originally posted by JanS48 View Post
      Is there a test to tell when electrolyte is needed vs water ?
      distilled water only

      Originally posted by JanS48 View Post
      Is there such a thing as a lead-acid battery 'additive' that is recommended ?
      even if one exists I'd pass on- IMO it can only make things worse

      Originally posted by JanS48 View Post
      II was contemplating on getting the vent caps that 'claim' to reduce maintenance by 50% - anyone had experience with those?
      those seem to work by returning water back to cells. I have no experience with any but there was recent thread here recommending particular models

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by JanS48 View Post
        .............I was contemplating on getting the vent caps that 'claim' to reduce maintenance by 50% - anyone had experience with those?.........
        Only thing you add to batteries is DISTILLED WATER. Add anything else and you ruin them, and try getting Acme Battery Pills to replace your $250 battery.

        There are 2 types of caps
        Catalytic Recombiners: expensive, work 3-6 years, must remove when you EQ batteries.
        Plastic Bead Mist Catchers: pricey, they capture the acid mist and drip it back into the cells, saves a little bit of juice. I used them but was not impressed.

        Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
        || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
        || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

        solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
        gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks for the input everyone. To Mike90250 - I was confused by "try getting Acme Battery Pills to replace your $250 battery." ? Is that a recommendation to try a different battery? I didn't come up with anything when googling: Acme Battery Pills

          Regarding the batteries I'm using: they are Caterpillar truck batteries rated at 190 ah. I have eight of these configured in two banks of 48v in parallel.
          I can get these that have been set aside as spares that have never been placed in service, they are 3 years old, been kept fully charged and I can get them for scrap price.
          I may even add another eight if I can figure where to put them all.

          I just today started testing battery bank one ( 4 batteries ) with a new 10,000w 48v Reliable Power inverter. I powered a well pump and a refrig for the past 12 hrs and I'm still at 48.8 v.
          (was 51.2 when started) All in all I'm very pleased with my test - and that was with nothing going back into them, also the wife was doing laundry today feeding two washing machines so the well pump was very busy.

          Again, thanks for the input everyone, I'll stock up on distilled water. Is the distilled water from CVS acceptable?

          Thanks
          Jan

          Comment


          • #6
            Sorry, in the USA, there was a classic cartoon series of Roadrunner Bird (an actual, real type of bird) and the Coyote (dingo) which was always trying to catch the bird for a tasty dinner. Coyote used Acme Rocket shoes, Acme birdseed bait, Acme 5 ton anvil. None of which ever worked, until Coyote stood under the anvil, which then fell.

            Just like Penl$ pills you buy on the internet, battery pills are worthless, except to the seller.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acme_Corporation
            http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.2001188
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iWvedIhWjM
            https://www.wired.com/2014/01/why-wi...crappy-design/
            https://www.wired.com/2012/12/acme-poster-kickstarter/
            http://twistedsifter.com/2015/03/chu...d-road-runner/
            Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
            || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
            || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

            solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
            gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by JanS48 View Post
              The batteries I will be using are heavy duty truck batteries that are rated at 1400 CCA / 190AH
              I know it's frowned upon to use truck/car batteries but these seem to power my inverter nicely.
              I can also gather a number of these, if needed.
              "frowned upon" is putting it mildly - using an automotive style / starting batteries, instead of a proper deep cycle battery, is very wrong.
              "gather more" - More batteries in parallel? Why?

              If you deep discharge & recharge those automotive style batteries every day,
              then they will not last long enough for you to even worry about any of your concerns.

              Comment


              • #8
                To NEOH - Ok, I'll take your post under advisement.

                Just to be clear there are many U-Tubers out there that are successfully running banks of car batteries successfully.
                Also the batteries I'm using are way more heavy duty than a typical or even heavy duty car battery.

                Frankly I'm very new at all this and will most likely get 'stung' a few times.

                As for more batteries in parallel, well if you do the math I have two banks of 4 batteries where each battery is rated at 190 ah, by placing those banks (4 bats each) in parallel my inverter sees that as one 48v bank having 380 ah, if I add another four I'd be at 570 ah, if I added 8 I'd be at 760 ah. In my house I could run for a few days off of that much reserve.

                I'm currently testing a new inverter running off of just one bank 48v (4 batteries) - I've currently run a well pump and the refrig for the past 28 hrs and the bank is still above 48v - and that's with nothing charging them.

                I'm not anticipating to be able to run my entire home off grid, I'd just like to put those things that draw the most juice on an off grid system.
                That system (panel) BTW will have a transfer switch so it can easily be switched to grid power should the battery bank run very low.

                Speaking to that, how low can you safely run the batteries down to? I've been told approx 11v - does that sound about right?

                Thanks for the input.

                Jan




                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by JanS48 View Post
                  To NEOH - Ok, I'll take your post under advisement.

                  Just to be clear there are many U-Tubers out there that are successfully running banks of car batteries successfully.
                  Also the batteries I'm using are way more heavy duty than a typical or even heavy duty car battery.

                  Frankly I'm very new at all this and will most likely get 'stung' a few times.

                  As for more batteries in parallel, well if you do the math I have two banks of 4 batteries where each battery is rated at 190 ah, by placing those banks (4 bats each) in parallel my inverter sees that as one 48v bank having 380 ah, if I add another four I'd be at 570 ah, if I added 8 I'd be at 760 ah. In my house I could run for a few days off of that much reserve.

                  I'm currently testing a new inverter running off of just one bank 48v (4 batteries) - I've currently run a well pump and the refrig for the past 28 hrs and the bank is still above 48v - and that's with nothing charging them.

                  I'm not anticipating to be able to run my entire home off grid, I'd just like to put those things that draw the most juice on an off grid system.
                  That system (panel) BTW will have a transfer switch so it can easily be switched to grid power should the battery bank run very low.

                  Speaking to that, how low can you safely run the batteries down to? I've been told approx 11v - does that sound about right?

                  Thanks for the input.

                  Jan



                  To hell with the You Tubers. They are doing something that will not work very long or is dangerous.

                  If you have come hear to get help then listen to what people are saying and stay away from the crap videos you see on the internet because car or truck batteries are not meant to be deep cycled many times and will turn into dead weight. Especially if you run your batteries below 12volts because at 11v would be sort of sticking a knife in them.

                  Also if you have the ability to be connected to the grid why do you want to pay many times more for each kWh you would generate living off grid?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    here's the table

                    Deep cycle batteries are rated at about 20%-30 usage (leaving 70-80% still in the battery)

                    battery-state-of-charge LeadAcid.jpg
                    Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by JanS48 View Post
                      The batteries I will be using are heavy duty truck batteries that are rated at 1400 CCA / 190AH - I currently have eight of these configured in two banks of 48v that will be in parallel. I know it's frowned upon to use truck/car batteries but these seem to power my inverter nicely.
                      Sure they work great, a lot better than deep cycle in the short term. Not to worry though you will be frowning big time soon and will learn a very expensive lesson when your batteries quit working in a few months and you have to replace them. You will cry all the way to the bank when you replace them and learn a very expensive lesson. Education can be expensive if you do not listen and do your home work.

                      You made two huge mistakes that you will regret. . You used SLI batteries, and you used parallel configuration. Don't do that again when you replace them.
                      Last edited by Sunking; 09-15-2017, 03:21 PM.
                      MSEE, PE

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        To Sunking

                        Thanks for the advise, as for the $$$ spent, I got these at nearly scrap prices. If the whole lot goes bad and I return them to a scrap yard I'll be out approx 250. total.
                        Aside from the use of SLI battereis ( sorry I'm still learning the abbreviations used by the solar community what does SLI stand for ? ) In my field it would be System Link Interface.

                        Anyway, I'm curious why putting the battery banks in parallel is a bad option?

                        I do have a choice, I could parallel pairs of 12v batteries to 4 pairs and then put the 4 pairs in series for 48v - is that a better option?

                        Also, I've been doing some research on deep cycle vs heavy duty batteries. Both have increased lead plate density, The deep cycle batteries use a lead alloy containing antimony which slows the discharge rate but lengthens the time of discharge. I have a call into an engineer at Interstate for better clarification (friend of a friend).
                        I suffer from the curse of an engineer - I need to know the why's of things.

                        Anyway, so far from the info I've gathered from battery sites and engineers, If I hold the max discharge of my batteries to 11.8v and don't over charge them (biggest culprit for failure so I'm told) they should last for years. I guess I'll know that in a few months. I'll keep you posted.

                        Again, thanks for the information (and I am doing my homework).

                        Jan



                        Comment


                        • #13
                          SLI = Starting, Lighting, Ignition. Basically a car battery.
                          2.2kw Suntech mono, Classic 200, NEW Trace SW4024

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by JanS48 View Post
                            To Sunking

                            Thanks for the advise, as for the $$$ spent, I got these at nearly scrap prices. If the whole lot goes bad and I return them to a scrap yard I'll be out approx 250. total.
                            Aside from the use of SLI battereis ( sorry I'm still learning the abbreviations used by the solar community what does SLI stand for ? ) In my field it would be System Link Interface.

                            Anyway, I'm curious why putting the battery banks in parallel is a bad option?

                            I do have a choice, I could parallel pairs of 12v batteries to 4 pairs and then put the 4 pairs in series for 48v - is that a better option?

                            Also, I've been doing some research on deep cycle vs heavy duty batteries. Both have increased lead plate density, The deep cycle batteries use a lead alloy containing antimony which slows the discharge rate but lengthens the time of discharge. I have a call into an engineer at Interstate for better clarification (friend of a friend).
                            I suffer from the curse of an engineer - I need to know the why's of things.

                            Anyway, so far from the info I've gathered from battery sites and engineers, If I hold the max discharge of my batteries to 11.8v and don't over charge them (biggest culprit for failure so I'm told) they should last for years. I guess I'll know that in a few months. I'll keep you posted.

                            Again, thanks for the information (and I am doing my homework).

                            Jan


                            The main reason batteries wired in parallel is bad is due to the unequal charging and discharging across multiple paths with different resistances.

                            There is a web site called Smart Gage which goes into more detail on the good and bad ways to wire batteries.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Thanks for the Smart Gage link SunEagie great stuff on how to properly parallel batteries. However, you didn't read my question post correctly, I've two battery banks that will be connected in parallel - not batteries. After reviewing the info at Smart Gage, I mainly need to have both banks configured with similar connectors and use the same length cables to connect them to the selector switch. Although it was a bit of work, all my battery connections are with soldiered (silver flow) 4/0 cable connections - a pain to work with frankly but a robust outcome.

                              Again, thanks for the info.

                              Jan

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