Trojans Smart Carbon Technology.

[paulcheung]

Hi all,

The past few months my battery bank give me a lot of charging problems due to what I believe is sulfation. I begin to research the new Trojans Smart Carbon Technology. I couldn't find much information on the web so I email Trojans battery support to get some answers.

I thought some of the members of this forum may be want to know this new technology, so I copy and paste the emails below:

Hi,
I like to know how smart carbon work, and how end user help to make sure the battery to last as long as it possible. I want to know when the battery in PSOC what the soft sulfur do? do they turn hard in the electrolyte or they stay soft cbecause there isn't any negative lead plate to stick them self to? How long can the battery stay in PSOC before a full 100% charge is required? Thank you.

Answer,
Subject: Request for more information received
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 00:29:13 +0000


Thanks for your interest in Trojan Battery.

Smart carbon works making it easier for the sulfate to dislodge when finally that part of the battery get charged.

When a battery is discharged it is discharged at random and the discharge is just the sulfuric part of the acid getting into the sponge lead. If that part of the battery is not charged in several hours, then the sulfate may become too solid for the charging process to take it back to the sulfuric acid. In reality killing that small part of the battery.
Smart carbon, only works for battery in PSOC as if the battery is always fully charged, then there is not sulfating to help dislodge.
For a battery to last the longest we need several things.
a) Battery should be at 25C. For each 10C over 25C the battery life is reduced in half. Ex. At 35C a battery will last only 50% than at 25C under the same circumstance.
b) Battery should be charged with the correct charging algorithm, not to head up the battery or not to undercharged. This will include equalizing the battery if is not a VRLA.
c) Battery should be charged to 100% as soon as possible, the normal battery state should be charged, even if we only have one hour, battery will like to be charged for that hour. That prevent sulfation.
d) Battery should be discharged to a max of 50%, the less discharge the more a battery will last.
Thanks
Best Regards


Hi Ramon,
Thank you for your quick reply regarding my questions about the Smart Carbon Technology your company use in your Premium and Industrial line batteries. I understand most of the answers you gave me, but since English is not my first language there are something I still need you to clarify for me. May be I need to put my question in different way so you can help me to understand fully.
On your last Email you said;
Smart carbon works making it easier for the sulfate to dislodge when finally that part of the battery get charged.

When a battery is discharged it is discharged at random and the discharge is just the sulfuric part of the acid getting into the sponge lead. If that part of the battery is not charged in several hours, then the sulfate may become too solid for the charging process to take it back to the sulfuric acid. In reality killing that small part of the battery.
Smart carbon, only works for battery in PSOC as if the battery is always fully charged, then there is not sulfating to help dislodge.

Let me see if I can understand you on this one,

1, because of Smart Carbon, The sulfuric can not get into the sponge lead, or it can’t stick to the lead, so it can’t kill that part of the battery?

Answer: With smart carbon, the sulfuric will get into the sponge lead as usual, but will not stick so quick to the lead. Think of it as carbon molecules between the lead and the molecules of the sulfuric to prevent the sulfuric to stick too hard to the lead.

2, So is the Smart Carbon immune to sulfation? Or it just make it longer to sulfate the battery so we the user can full charge the battery in time to avoid the sulfation.

Answer: It is just make it longer to sulfate the battery so the user can full charge the battery in time to avoid sulfation.

3, If the Smart Carbon is only slow down the sulfating process not totally immune, how long can the battery in PSOC before it cause sulfation problem? Few days or weeks? The reason I ask is that where I live, we have evry good insolation, but the same time we also have a lot of cloud passing by each day and sometime a lot of overcast. My panels are over sized because of the clouds, if the battery can stay few days PSOC. The panels will be able to charge the battery back to 100% eventually.

Answer: A few days, the issue is that the battery discharge and charge at random. Two cycles at same DOD with one PSOC in the middle will give us different results. But in general if the battery is fully charge on Monday and fully charge back again on Thursday. With smart carbon you battery life will good.

4, As you said in your earlier Email, the battery will last much longer if it stay in the 25C degree. But Absorption charge usually sent up the temperature substantially. If I can make the battery stay in PSOC state most of the time, It will make the battery stay cool most of the time. Do you recommend I should make the battery stay in PSOC most of the time or I should charge back the battery to 100% ASAP when I got your batteries?

Answer: Please let your charger know the battery brand and model it is charging. ALL batteries have a different charging algorithm, but most battery manufacture have an average algorithm that will enhance your battery life. Battery as people will last longer due to what they eat. Never prevent the battery to be fully charge due to temperature, just adjust or change the charger, it is less expensive.

[PNjunction]

Yes - while the addition of "smart carbon" or as with Exide's in the "Edge" line, graphite improves the PSOC handling characteristics, it still does not relieve one from the need for achieving a full charge as much as you can.

The primary benefactors and design criteria for carbon or graphite additives was/is for mainly for the so-called "micro-hybrid". That is, a normal ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) vehicle that is capable of rapid engine start-stop techniques. Such as when sitting at a long stoplight, engine off and then back on again rapidly if a timeout passes, or the driver puts his foot on the accelerator to wake the engine.

It is also designed for the European "anti-idling" laws, which was designed to prevent say diesels doing delivery service from sitting at the curb for long periods of time without forcing an engine shut down to save in both petrol and smog.

In both cases, psoc became a real issue, and the graphite / carbon additives help assure that when there IS enough time to do a full charge, it can do so quickly enough.

Note that most marketing materials from any manufacturer always compare against a bog-standard FLA sli battery. Rarely will you see them comparing to a "pure-lead" agm for comparison, which also has the ability to do psoc easily, and recharge fast - although still having to follow the normal rule of getting a true full charge when you can.

[inetdog]

...
Note that most marketing materials from any manufacturer always compare against a bog-standard FLA sli battery. Rarely will you see them comparing to a "pure-lead" agm for comparison, which also has the ability to do psoc easily, and recharge fast - although still having to follow the normal rule of getting a true full charge when you can.

+1
It takes a chemistry other than lead acid to tolerate sitting at PSOC for extended periods of time with no degradation.
Lithium chemistries are able to sit at partial charge indefinitely, as long as their self-discharge is not allowed to run the battery voltage below a lower limit.
NiMH is another chemistry that can tolerate PSOC well, and is used in the original Prius traction batteries.

[paulcheung]

I was hoping it like LifePO4 to do real PSOC, so we can operate at 30 to 80% SOC to keep the battery cool. Anyway it is still better than the regular FLA that require daily 100% charge which is very difficult for Solar system to do.

[Sunking]

Paul here is the KISS example. Think of Carbon and Graphite as a Teflon coated skillet where food does not stick to it when cooked. As you know it is lead sulfate crystals that build up over time and harden on the plates. As you discharge lead sulfate crystals begin to form, they attach themselves to the battery plates and being the process of hardening. The deeper you discharge the batteries, the process accelerates. If the lead sulfate crystals are left on long enough, or once you go below 50% DOD, the crystals will harden and once it hardens is permanent and no more chemical reaction in that portion of the plates can take place. As a result, you loose capacity and internal resistance rises inhibits capacity , charge, and discharge. 95% of all Pb batteries deaths are from sulfation. You cannot stop it, just slow it down. Carbon acts like Teflon to prevent lead sulfate from sticking and lodging themselves onto the plates.

Just remember Paul you live in Jamaica where it is warm and thus you only get about 1/2 battery life. Pb batteries like it cold.

[lkruper]

I was hoping it like LifePO4 to do real PSOC, so we can operate at 30 to 80% SOC to keep the battery cool. Anyway it is still better than the regular FLA that require daily 100% charge which is very difficult for Solar system to do.

Trojan has a chart on their site to show the difference between legacy T105 and Smart Carbon. One can see the advantage but also that it is not a cure-all... it is better but not perfect.

[lkruper]

Paul here is the KISS example. Think of Carbon and Graphite as a Teflon coated skillet where food does not stick to it when cooked. As you know it is lead sulfate crystals that build up over time and harden on the plates. As you discharge lead sulfate crystals begin to form, they attach themselves to the battery plates and being the process of hardening. The deeper you discharge the batteries, the process accelerates. If the lead sulfate crystals are left on long enough, or once you go below 50% DOD, the crystals will harden and once it hardens is permanent and no more chemical reaction in that portion of the plates can take place. As a result, you loose capacity and internal resistance rises inhibits capacity , charge, and discharge. 95% of all Pb batteries deaths are from sulfation. You cannot stop it, just slow it down. Carbon acts like Teflon to prevent lead sulfate from sticking and lodging themselves onto the plates.

Just remember Paul you live in Jamaica where it is warm and thus you only get about 1/2 battery life. Pb batteries like it cold.

That reminds me of my skillet story. I bought two small Teflon skillets from Amazon. Everyone knows that the Teflon does not last forever ... at least now Amazon knows that. They advertised lifetime warranty on these skillets. Well, I was careful but my eggs started sticking. They wanted to just refund my money but I said, no, I wanted replacement skillets. Well about 6 months later, guess what? Now they don't have that warranty, but I did get another set of skillets under warranty. Trojan is smarter than that

[inetdog]

Paul here is the KISS example. Think of Carbon and Graphite as a Teflon coated skillet where food does not stick to it when cooked. As you know it is lead sulfate crystals that build up over time and harden on the plates. As you discharge lead sulfate crystals begin to form, they attach themselves to the battery plates and being the process of hardening. The deeper you discharge the batteries, the process accelerates. If the lead sulfate crystals are left on long enough, or once you go below 50% DOD, the crystals will harden and once it hardens is permanent and no more chemical reaction in that portion of the plates can take place. As a result, you loose capacity and internal resistance rises inhibits capacity , charge, and discharge. 95% of all Pb batteries deaths are from sulfation. You cannot stop it, just slow it down. Carbon acts like Teflon to prevent lead sulfate from sticking and lodging themselves onto the plates.

Just remember Paul you live in Jamaica where it is warm and thus you only get about 1/2 battery life. Pb batteries like it cold.

Analogies are a bitch sometimes.
The one flaw I see in this analogy is that if the sulfate actually falls off the plates rather than just being inhibited from crystallizing there will never be any electrochemical reaaction to put the sulfate back into solution during the charging cycle.
Close but no cigar.
Methinks the actual situation is a bit more complicated.

[lkruper]

Analogies are a bitch sometimes.
The one flaw I see in this analogy is that if the sulfate actually falls off the plates rather than just being inhibited from crystallizing there will never be any electrochemical reaaction to put the sulfate back into solution during the charging cycle.
Close but no cigar.
Methinks the actual situation is a bit more complicated.

If it helps, when the Teflon on the skillet started to wear out, the eggs would stick and then dry up and fall off... then the Teflon itself started to flake

[paulcheung]

Analogies are a bitch sometimes.
The one flaw I see in this analogy is that if the sulfate actually falls off the plates rather than just being inhibited from crystallizing there will never be any electrochemical reaaction to put the sulfate back into solution during the charging cycle.
Close but no cigar.
Methinks the actual situation is a bit more complicated.

Maybe that time we can just drain the electrolyte and refill it back like new battery again?