UPS batteries for grid-connected emergency battery backup - Use deep cycle or not?

[lkruper]

Speaking of Odyssey's, I took a look at Outback's line of batteries (EnergyCell RE) which appear to be rebadged versions of the Enersys (Odyssey) SBS line of tppl agm's. They are basically taking off in ah capacity where the more consumer targeted Odyssey stops.

Good charging info docs from both companies about essentially the same products. Might be worth a look.

The GH appear to be marketed for my requirement, thanks for the reference.

[PNjunction]

Speaking of Odyssey's, I took a look at Outback's line of batteries (EnergyCell RE) which appear to be rebadged versions of the Enersys (Odyssey) SBS line of tppl agm's. They are basically taking off in ah capacity where the more consumer targeted Odyssey stops.

Good charging info docs from both companies about essentially the same products. Might be worth a look.

[Sunking]

I liked the idea of the bus bars. They would be less resistance than 1/0, correct? Any idea where to purchase something like that?

No more restrictive in terms of mechanics. Seriously quality #6 AWG cable works great. As Mike mentioned you can buy prefabricated cables. I suggest you do that. 6 AWG gets you 100 amps.

[Mike90250]

I liked the idea of the bus bars. They would be less resistance than 1/0, correct? Any idea where to purchase something like that?

They can be expensive. Often a premade #6 or #8 jumper will work just as well. My batteries came with the plated bar jumpers, which I did use for most of the connections.

A local battery shop can make up the jumpers with hydraulic crimped terminals for less than $10 per cable (with 2 terminals) Or get the $50 hydraulic crimper off the internet. Avoid the harbor freight crimper, it's dies do not fit the terminals.

[lkruper]

Be sure to size the Inter-Cell jumpers correctly. Based on the batteries you have, the smallest I would go with is #6 and is good to 100 amps which is more than your batteries should ever supply except for those rare infrequent occasions. What I will tell you to do is make sure the Inter-Cell jumpers must be as large or larger than the terminal conductors. Again #6 is likely the largest you will use. If not use larger. You cannot go to large, just too small. But there is a point when over kill gets silly and expensive. You will not need a 1/0.

I liked the idea of the bus bars. They would be less resistance than 1/0, correct? Any idea where to purchase something like that?

[lkruper]

You are welcome. I take it you understood my mental picture?

Yes, very clearly.

[Sunking]

Be sure to size the Inter-Cell jumpers correctly. Based on the batteries you have, the smallest I would go with is #6 and is good to 100 amps which is more than your batteries should ever supply except for those rare infrequent occasions. What I will tell you to do is make sure the Inter-Cell jumpers must be as large or larger than the terminal conductors. Again #6 is likely the largest you will use. If not use larger. You cannot go to large, just too small. But there is a point when over kill gets silly and expensive. You will not need a 1/0.

[Sunking]

perfect, thank you.

You are welcome. I take it you understood my mental picture?

[lkruper]

Wished I could post pictures or drawings as I have exactly what you need to know. So lets try this. I assume you know how to wire the batteries in series - to+ OK?----------------------------------------------------You want to put the batteries side by side as close as you can get them together. Alternate every battery up/ down. Meaning if the batteries were lined up in front of you the Positive terminal of battery one is up or away from you. Second battery Positive down, 3rd up, and 4th down. What you will now notice is the adjacent battery opposite polarities are right next to each other, only requiring very short jumpers of only a few inches. In fact you can even buy lead coated copper term bars to use in place of inter-cell jumpers.

perfect, thank you.

[Sunking]

Wished I could post pictures or drawings as I have exactly what you need to know. So lets try this. I assume you know how to wire the batteries in series - to+ OK?----------------------------------------------------You want to put the batteries side by side as close as you can get them together. Alternate every battery up/ down. Meaning if the batteries were lined up in front of you the Positive terminal of battery one is up or away from you. Second battery Positive down, 3rd up, and 4th down. What you will now notice is the adjacent battery opposite polarities are right next to each other, only requiring very short jumpers of only a few inches. In fact you can even buy lead coated copper term bars to use in place of inter-cell jumpers.

[lkruper]

Odyssey are very popular batteries for DIY Ev's, Robotoics, and consumer grade UPS. They have about 400 to 500 cycles, or 4 to 5 years in Stand-By. Whichever comes first. So in Stand-By Emergency Float service expect only 3 to 5 years.

Odyssey AGM is like Telecom batteries a high performance AGM. With its very low Internal Resistance means you can charge then real slow or real damn fast.

If we are talking about 2150 you can charge them as slow as 10 amps, or as fast as 300 amps, and anything in between. For the 2250 can be charged as slow as 10 amps, or as fast as 375 amps.

What you really need to ask yourself is: Do I need to pay the premium and need a battery that can supply a C/2 discharge rate?

Because depending on where you buy the 2150 and 2250 are going to cost you roughly $0.342/wh for a battery with a 24 month warranty. You can get a premium line Trojan T-105RE 5 year battery for $0.12/wh or 1/3 the cost of an Odyssey, 5 year warranty, and can easily handle a C/4 discharge current with an R= .0035 Oms. A pair of T-105RE has a capacity of 2.7 Kwh for $300, vs 1.2 Kwh for an Odyssey PC2150 @ $330.

So back to your original question. Why not use Telecom Batteries.

Answer is a big NO for cycle applications because of short cycle life. A definite MAYBE for Stand By Service if you can justify the performance and short life span.

Odyssey are great batteries, number 2 in my AGM book only second to Concorde Sun-Extender AGM which runs circles around all other AGM batteries including Odyssey. Concorde like Odyssey, you really need to justify the expense. Because at end of life is going to cost you some 400 to 600% more than FLA. The Odyssey PC2150 can only deliver 50 amps without excessive voltage sag, but can only do so for 40 minute with a 100 AH rating. The Trojan can deliver the same 50 amps for 3 hours at less cost with a battery warranty and longer cycle and calendar life.

So do your homework before you start dropping cash, because there are better alternatives.

I am in the process of implementing step #1 of my plan (http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...l=1#post163486) which is installing the manual transfer switch. My recent experience is leading me to believe I will get to step #2 within 6 months.

The reason is that I experienced my first power outage at the cabin. Power went out around 5PM and did not get back on until after 1AM. I have not yet had the transfer switch installed ... hopefully this Wednesday. Good news is that I experienced using my 1600w inverter generator with extension cords through the back door and all over the floor. My APC UPS on my DSL modem worked well and gave me 4 hours of internet connectivity until that battery was depleted. I had not connected the generator up because the power company kept stringing me along with false promises all night so around 10PM I connected the generator. Can't wait for my transfer switch.

Now I want to plan for phase II which is to have 4 6v T105 batteries (maybe RE) in series for 24 volts to be on standby with a charger connected to grid power and an inverter. To switch over I will cable the inverter to my manual transfer switch. I was able to experience trying to get to sleep with a generator running and don't like it.

So my question is, to wire these 4 batteries in series, does it matter how I physically set them up? 4 batteries end to end, side by side or even two side by side above two side by side? Does the length of wire matter in series? Also, I am completely ignorant about connectors. What are the absolute easiest to implement and maintain? I am willing to buy wires pre-made to connect to the batteries.

[lkruper]

2.25 Sun Hours is the threshold. Example lets say you need 300 watt hours, mppt, and 2.25 sun hours.

A 300 wh daily load requires 12 volt 125 AH battery. With 2.25 sun hours required a 200 watt panel. A 200 watt panel using a MPPT controller generates up to 15.7 amps. 15.7 amps on a 125 AH battery is C/8.

2.25 is the threshold for 5 day autonomy. I estimate I can get by in an emergency with 768 kWh and want the battery to last over-night so that I don't have to run the generator at night. So I planned for 2X autonomy with 50% DOD max which requires a panel of least 408w (insolation of 2.82) and a battery of 128 ah at 12v (or 64 at 24v). This is a charge rate of C/4. However as I said earlier, I could spend the same amount of money on FLA batteries and increase the autonomy to 5 (which is hard-wired in your sticky) and use FLA.

Actually, looking at this a bit closer at 5X autonomy I would need 320AH at 12v and 160 at 24v. I would need to spend as much or more on the 320 FLA as I would on the 128 AGM. Another complication is that I will lose some sunshine in the morning and evening due to trees and canyon. So I might need to further compress my charging into fewer hours to compensate.

I am planning my emergency system in phases.

1) Install the manual transfer switch for my existing generator.
2) Install a battery + charger + inverter to allow for quiet power at night. Plug into manual transfer switch at night and turn off generator.
3) Install a panel and CC for possible longer extended outage.

[Sunking]

Another reason I was considering AGM instead of FLA was your sticky which shows how to design a battery system. The insolation number for my location goes from a low of 2.82 to a high of 7.36.

2.25 Sun Hours is the threshold. Example lets say you need 300 watt hours, mppt, and 2.25 sun hours.

A 300 wh daily load requires 12 volt 125 AH battery. With 2.25 sun hours required a 200 watt panel. A 200 watt panel using a MPPT controller generates up to 15.7 amps. 15.7 amps on a 125 AH battery is C/8.

[lkruper]

Odyssey are very popular batteries for DIY Ev's, Robotoics, and consumer grade UPS. They have about 400 to 500 cycles, or 4 to 5 years in Stand-By. Whichever comes first. So in Stand-By Emergency Float service expect only 3 to 5 years.

Odyssey AGM is like Telecom batteries a high performance AGM. With its very low Internal Resistance means you can charge then real slow or real damn fast.

If we are talking about 2150 you can charge them as slow as 10 amps, or as fast as 300 amps, and anything in between. For the 2250 can be charged as slow as 10 amps, or as fast as 375 amps.

What you really need to ask yourself is: Do I need to pay the premium and need a battery that can supply a C/2 discharge rate?

Because depending on where you buy the 2150 and 2250 are going to cost you roughly $0.342/wh for a battery with a 24 month warranty. You can get a premium line Trojan T-105RE 5 year battery for $0.12/wh or 1/3 the cost of an Odyssey, 5 year warranty, and can easily handle a C/4 discharge current with an R= .0035 Oms. A pair of T-105RE has a capacity of 2.7 Kwh for $300, vs 1.2 Kwh for an Odyssey PC2150 @ $330.

So back to your original question. Why not use Telecom Batteries.

Answer is a big NO for cycle applications because of short cycle life. A definite MAYBE for Stand By Service if you can justify the performance and short life span.

Odyssey are great batteries, number 2 in my AGM book only second to Concorde Sun-Extender AGM which runs circles around all other AGM batteries including Odyssey. Concorde like Odyssey, you really need to justify the expense. Because at end of life is going to cost you some 400 to 600% more than FLA. The Odyssey PC2150 can only deliver 50 amps without excessive voltage sag, but can only do so for 40 minute with a 100 AH rating. The Trojan can deliver the same 50 amps for 3 hours at less cost with a battery warranty and longer cycle and calendar life.

So do your homework before you start dropping cash, because there are better alternatives.

Thanks, I was wondering about Sun Xtender as I just had a page up selling them and it appears I can get a bigger battery than Odyssey for less money, but I have not really shopped.

Another reason I was considering AGM instead of FLA was your sticky which shows how to design a battery system. The insolation number for my location goes from a low of 2.82 to a high of 7.36. The winter numbers give a higher panel size and a charge rate of C/4. ( BTW, thanks for that sticky, after I read it a few times and made my own spreadsheet it advanced my knowledge considerably. ) That means I need to use AGMs. However as I figured out (hopefully correctly!), if one increases autonomy and thus the battery bank size it is no longer necessary to use AGM.

In that scenario one gets to use FLAs at 1/2 the cost.

Another thing I need to consider is that in my location I will probably lose a few hours sunshine in the morning because of trees and another at the end because of a canyon. I think I retain most of the highest sunshine hours. However this also means I must compress my charging into fewer hours which again supports either a higher rate of charge than FLA can take or a bigger bank.

For a small system like mine, I am not all that concerned about spending $500 on batteries (when I get around to it), because that is about what I spent for my inverter/generator.... its another tool that I won't need to use that much but which I will be really glad I have if I need it. I also like the idea of learning how to maintain FLA batteries.

[Sunking]

Thank you! I am very impressed with what I am reading in their manual (http://www.odysseybatteries.com/docs...M-002_1014.pdf). They don't seem to be overly concerned about the occasional really deep cycle and also bill this as having an 8-12 lifetime in standby mode.

Odyssey are very popular batteries for DIY Ev's, Robotoics, and consumer grade UPS. They have about 400 to 500 cycles, or 4 to 5 years in Stand-By. Whichever comes first. So in Stand-By Emergency Float service expect only 3 to 5 years.

I also like the fact that I can get them on Amazon and they offer Prime shipping. I would be inclined to buy their charger as well and see they make a 50A charger (although I am not finding it for sale anywhere... some saying it was discontinued).

Odyssey AGM is like Telecom batteries a high performance AGM. With its very low Internal Resistance means you can charge then real slow or real damn fast.

If we are talking about 2150 you can charge them as slow as 10 amps, or as fast as 300 amps, and anything in between. For the 2250 can be charged as slow as 10 amps, or as fast as 375 amps.

What you really need to ask yourself is: Do I need to pay the premium and need a battery that can supply a C/2 discharge rate?

Because depending on where you buy the 2150 and 2250 are going to cost you roughly $0.342/wh for a battery with a 24 month warranty. You can get a premium line Trojan T-105RE 5 year battery for $0.12/wh or 1/3 the cost of an Odyssey, 5 year warranty, and can easily handle a C/4 discharge current with an R= .0035 Oms. A pair of T-105RE has a capacity of 2.7 Kwh for $300, vs 1.2 Kwh for an Odyssey PC2150 @ $330.

So back to your original question. Why not use Telecom Batteries.

Answer is a big NO for cycle applications because of short cycle life. A definite MAYBE for Stand By Service if you can justify the performance and short life span.

Odyssey are great batteries, number 2 in my AGM book only second to Concorde Sun-Extender AGM which runs circles around all other AGM batteries including Odyssey. Concorde like Odyssey, you really need to justify the expense. Because at end of life is going to cost you some 400 to 600% more than FLA. The Odyssey PC2150 can only deliver 50 amps without excessive voltage sag, but can only do so for 40 minute with a 100 AH rating. The Trojan can deliver the same 50 amps for 3 hours at less cost with a battery warranty and longer cycle and calendar life.

So do your homework before you start dropping cash, because there are better alternatives.