Limiting Solar Charge Current from the Charge Controller

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  • Matrix
    Solar Fanatic
    • Oct 2017
    • 360

    Limiting Solar Charge Current from the Charge Controller

    My battery bank is 4 6v 435ah wet batteries in series. C/8 would be 54 charging amps and C/10 would be 43 amps.

    I have an array that can do upwards of 71 + charging amps. Just today with a mix of sun and clouds I saw a moment of 71 amps to the batteries. While this is not a sustained charge amp and it does not happen very often or long, I have seen the CC able to hold 60-66 amps plus for extended periods of time.

    Question #1: are those higher amps a problem?

    A solution would be to lower the output amps of the CC. The MidNite Classic 150 has an output amp limiting setting in the menu. But this would also limit the amps for loads and opportunity loads if I were to set it to C/8 of the battery Ah. Not a good idea I would think. But it may also not be a good idea to be "hitting" the bank with current up to C/6 + for momentary bursts.

    A little known setting for the Classic 150 is the ability to Limit Charging Amps Only WITHOUT limiting total output amps for opportunity loads. This is a setting that is not easily accessed and is buried deep in the programing. But easy to do. I have done it ... and it works. (I can post the PDF of how to set the charge current limiting if anyone is interested)

    Question #2: would there be any real benefit to limiting the charge amps in the Classic to say the exact C/8 of the battery bank? Does occasionally going higher than C/8, for short times during a charge cycle have adverse effects on battery health? (obviously assuming battery temp is kept within reason)

    I have done the charge current limiting in the Classic. It does work, BUT the trade off is that it seems to build up a little more heat on the controller. So it is a trade off.

    Question #3: which is worse? Times when the charge current exceeds C/8 during a solar charge on the battery, OR heat build up on the CC's circuit board and FET's, etc.?? I assume the hi heat would limit the life span of the CC. (right now even with the CC's internal fans, AND an external fan on the CC running all day the FET's can get 63*C during charging)

    If setting the charge limit would be a good idea, Would you set it to C/8 or something higher? Lower?
    285Wx9 / MNClassic 150 / CSW4024 / TrojanL16H-ACx4
  • Sunking
    Solar Fanatic
    • Feb 2010
    • 23301

    #2
    Make this easy, don't worry about it. You have Trojan L16 hybrid batteries and they can take C/4 all day long.
    MSEE, PE

    Comment

    • Mike90250
      Moderator
      • May 2009
      • 16020

      #3
      I thought to get battery current limit with the Classic, you had to have a Whiz-Bang Jr to sense the battery current ? How else can it differentiate between loads and charging ?
      Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
      || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
      || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

      solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
      gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

      Comment

      • Matrix
        Solar Fanatic
        • Oct 2017
        • 360

        #4
        Originally posted by Mike90250
        I thought to get battery current limit with the Classic, you had to have a Whiz-Bang Jr to sense the battery current ? How else can it differentiate between loads and charging ?
        You are correct Mike, it also requires a Whiz-Bang Jr for the limiting.
        285Wx9 / MNClassic 150 / CSW4024 / TrojanL16H-ACx4

        Comment

        • Sunking
          Solar Fanatic
          • Feb 2010
          • 23301

          #5
          FWIW the way it is intended to limit charge current is panel wattage.
          MSEE, PE

          Comment

          • Matrix
            Solar Fanatic
            • Oct 2017
            • 360

            #6
            Mike with the MS CC to use this method it need to have the Whiz-Bang Jr
            Attached Files
            285Wx9 / MNClassic 150 / CSW4024 / TrojanL16H-ACx4

            Comment

            • Sunking
              Solar Fanatic
              • Feb 2010
              • 23301

              #7
              Matrix FWIW C/6 is not going to hurt L16's. No reason to spend more money on something you do not need. Most likely outcome is you just slow things down so much that in shorter sun hour days your batteries never get fully charged. Just monitor water use and if it gets excessive, than take another look. Until then relax.
              MSEE, PE

              Comment

              • Matrix
                Solar Fanatic
                • Oct 2017
                • 360

                #8
                Thanks SK. That was my other thought. By limiting charge I would slow down charging to the point it might not finish on solar. Right now with the array I have I get a fully charged even on partly cloudy days
                285Wx9 / MNClassic 150 / CSW4024 / TrojanL16H-ACx4

                Comment

                • travissand
                  Solar Fanatic
                  • Feb 2018
                  • 171

                  #9
                  You're charge controllers are getting up to 145 degrees Fahrenheit. I've got ten 250w panels so that is 2 in series X 5 sets. You have 3 in Series so your panel voltage is likely much higher and your charge controllers are working much harder. I wouldn't like those temperatures I'm sure they can handle them just fine still though I just don't like it. If I were in your shoes I'd probably buy a 10th panel and rewire them 2 in series or if a single panels voltage is sufficient I'd put them all in parallel.
                  I have an identical system where I didn't put any panels in series & the charge controller is pretty cold. Both charge controllers are pushing 96 amps each into the batteries often. I had to run a hell of a lot of wires for the system that had all parallel panels but it was worth it for the experiment. Both charge controllers charge the same battery Bank so I can watch the midnights real-time wattage and I'm getting more power from the parallel setup.
                  So which method is better? I still haven't determined that because the series system gets a head start because it reaches charging voltage sooner in the morning and before the parallel system can catch up the batteries are full. Lol. it's pretty much negligible and has more to do with how hot you want your charge controller to run. With two or three panels in series I guarantee that ants won't be living in that charge controller. But that can be accomplished with a mothball as well
                  I'll attach December's daily high temperature chart from the Midnite I have connected to the 2 * 5 array.
                  Attached Files

                  Comment

                  • Sunking
                    Solar Fanatic
                    • Feb 2010
                    • 23301

                    #10
                    Originally posted by travissand
                    You're charge controllers are getting up to 145 degrees Fahrenheit.
                    Please explain how you could possible know that?

                    MSEE, PE

                    Comment

                    • travissand
                      Solar Fanatic
                      • Feb 2018
                      • 171

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Sunking
                      Please explain how you could possible know that?
                      Matrix said in post 1 Quuestion#3
                      "FET's can get 63*C during charging) (right now even with the CC's internal fans, AND an external fan on the CC running all day the FET's can get 63*C during charging)"

                      Comment

                      • Sunking
                        Solar Fanatic
                        • Feb 2010
                        • 23301

                        #12
                        Originally posted by travissand

                        Matrix said in post 1 Quuestion#3
                        "FET's can get 63*C during charging) (right now even with the CC's internal fans, AND an external fan on the CC running all day the FET's can get 63*C during charging)"
                        OK but to the point.

                        With any MPPT controller one needs to look at the efficiency curves to find the Vmp for maximum efficiency voltage input. Otherwise you are cheating yourself out of power. For the MS Classic 150 is 90 volts at any battery voltage. Two panels in series is not going to give you 90 volts Vmp, it takes at least 3 GT panels in series to do that or up to 4 to 5 x 12 volt panels in series. If you want to error would be on the high side of 90 volts. In order of efficiency from most to least is:

                        90 Volts
                        100 Volts
                        110 Volt
                        120 Volts.

                        You would never want to go lower than 90 volts. You could get away with it on 12 and 24 volts, but not 48 volt battery. But if you think going lower than 90 volts is going to make it run cooler, think again and look at the specs. Going lower than 90 volts will just make it run hotter and less efficient.
                        MSEE, PE

                        Comment

                        • Matrix
                          Solar Fanatic
                          • Oct 2017
                          • 360

                          #13
                          And the reason I used the configuration I chose based on my needs and midnite solar's configuration tool. At 3S3P, this was the largest array I could build for 24v with a single CC and not exceed their spec recommendations for wattage etc. If I tried to go 4S2P I was leaving power on the table, and if I tried to go 5S2P midnite tool said it would be too much
                          285Wx9 / MNClassic 150 / CSW4024 / TrojanL16H-ACx4

                          Comment

                          • Sunking
                            Solar Fanatic
                            • Feb 2010
                            • 23301

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Matrix
                            And the reason I used the configuration I chose based on my needs and midnite solar's configuration tool. At 3S3P, this was the largest array I could build for 24v with a single CC and not exceed their spec recommendations for wattage etc. If I tried to go 4S2P I was leaving power on the table, and if I tried to go 5S2P midnite tool said it would be too much
                            Matrix you have done well, Warm Fuzzies to you. You did your homework, read the manual, examined the specs, and asked good questions.

                            MSEE, PE

                            Comment

                            • travissand
                              Solar Fanatic
                              • Feb 2018
                              • 171

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Sunking
                              . Going lower than 90 volts will just make it run hotter and less efficient.
                              obviously I've already disagreed with you. In case you didn't catch that. I've got two solar arrays connected to the same battery Bank. Each solar array has six 355w panels and has a maximum power output at 39 volts. Each array has its own Midnite 150. One array is all parallel and the other one is series parallel.
                              I can most definitely guarantee you the parallel unit runs cool. Often actually cool to the touch. And the other one is uncomfortably hot and I can only stand touching it briefly during peak hours.
                              I don't care what Midnite spec sheet says about efficiencies. I've done it. In the real world with a 24 volt system it runs cooler with 39 volts coming from the panels then 78 volts . I also get more kilowatts per hour into the batteries from the parallel setup

                              Comment

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