Enphase Battery?

[donald]

Here is a good place to track Australian solar news and rates:

http://www.solarchoice.net.au/blog/category/solar-panel-products/batteries-energy-storage-systems/

[SunEagle]

Getting back to prices, Australian Libertarians and others are purchasing grid tie solar for about $1/watt USD "all in" after about $0.65 USD government incentive. Average electric price in Australia is $0.29 USD. While it is unclear exactly what residential storage costs today, it seems a Powerwall type battery probably works well economically in Australia.

Here's a paper on this risky uncharted path:
Exploring the Death Spiral

Unfortunately the only Powerwall battery available for residential usage is the 10kw one which is only good for a minimum number of "back up" power usages. It is not designed for daily discharges of any kind so IMO just a very expensive emergency generator.

Maybe in a few years there will be a less expensive residential storage system but IMO not yet.

[donald]

Getting back to prices, Australian Libertarians and others are purchasing grid tie solar for about $1/watt USD "all in" after about $0.65 USD government incentive. Average electric price in Australia is $0.29 USD. While it is unclear exactly what residential storage costs today, it seems a Powerwall type battery probably works well economically in Australia.

Here's a paper on this risky uncharted path:
Exploring the Death Spiral
and
Warren Buffet: Utility Death Spiral Is Bull S*&^

[inetdog]

I'm a libertarian by nature, ....

As several pundits have quipped, here is the political spectrum:

At that end you have the Libertarians, then the conservative Republicans, the moderate Republicans, the conservative Democrats, then the liberal Democrats, then the socialists and on the far end the Libertarians.

[J.P.M.]

I expect that Hawaiians are by far the lowest energy users of any state. Are the vast number of efficiency requirements in vehicles, lighting, and appliances that have been mandated by the federal government not enough? We don't even get to wash clothes in hot water anymore.

No hot water for clothes? Oh the humanity !!

I've always washed clothes in cold water and I ain't dead or infected yet. I shower on .8 GPM shower heads w/Navy buttons for shutoffs and don't stink much. I shave using cold water and don't look like I got in a face fight with the cat. I'm a libertarian by nature, but if the gov. didn't mandate some stuff, social entropy would be free to improve the gene pool and the great unwashed masses would be less massive through natural selection of the less stupid.

[SunEagle]

Yes, I know. We are talking about the cost of electricity, aren't we? There have been some unbelievably low bids late last year, and this year. Perhaps these costs are "artificially low", although I'm not sure what that means.

Not sure either. Certainly the purchaser is getting a deal at 5 to 6 cents/kWh. So the seller must be also getting something in the deal.

Maybe like a car dealership. If they can clear the lot of a certain number of new cars they get a big bonus from the manufacturer. That way they can sell each car at a minor profit but overall the make out with the bonus.

Maybe the company that is selling the power gets some money incentive as long as they have a signed contract for a specific number of years and kWh amount sold. Those are the details that will not make the light of day so how they can make a profit will stay a mystery to us.

[donald]

You are misinterpreting the cost of those pv systems. That is what the builder got in a PPO contract to sell the power generated.

Yes, I know. We are talking about the cost of electricity, aren't we? There have been some unbelievably low bids late last year, and this year. Perhaps these costs are "artificially low", although I'm not sure what that means.

[donald]

I wonder if /how much anyone in Hawaii has given attention to the virtues of perhaps finding ways to use less energy rather than or before blindly paying justifiably high prices to generate it.

I expect that Hawaiians are by far the lowest energy users of any state. Are the vast number of efficiency requirements in vehicles, lighting, and appliances that have been mandated by the federal government not enough? We don't even get to wash clothes in hot water anymore.

[SunEagle]

I wonder if /how much anyone in Hawaii has given attention to the virtues of perhaps finding ways to use less energy rather than or before blindly paying justifiably high prices to generate it.

+1. As I have said many times. Getting the US populace to reduce their electrical consumption at night is the first barrier to overcome to be able to increase power generation from RE sources. The less used means the less "storage" required.

[J.P.M.]

Howdy,

I had a look at that 100% RE target and had a bit of a laugh at first. Then I started to think about the price of power over there and the very long pie in the sky timetable for it and thought you beauty the incentive is going to be there for a bunch more solar to be installed, happy days

I wonder if /how much anyone in Hawaii has given attention to the virtues of perhaps finding ways to use less energy rather than or before blindly paying justifiably high prices to generate it.

[Samsolar]

Sounds cool - using the flashy words such as momentum is meaningless in itself - there must be something to give momentum to. Hawaii legislators are making a political stunt and nothing more as of today.

The momentum is going into getting away from oil. If coal and nuclear are out, what are you left with? LNG and RE. LNG might still have a play for Hawaii, but there are a huge number of hurdles and they would still be tied to outside markets with no control.

You seemingly skipped over post #36 or perhaps just ignored it? Just to summarize, what you are calling a stunt has been going on with goals being set and met for a number of years. While anyone can argue if this is the best direction for them going forward, it is pretty hard to argue with what has actually happened over the past few years. Don't let that dissuade you from trying though.

[SunEagle]

Here are some costs for some utility scale solar projects from the end of last year:

http://www.solarplaza.com/article/top-5-cheapest-solar-kwhs-in-the-world

If you want to add utility scale batteries, pick a cost. At $200/kwh and a ten year life its less than $.06/kwh

The NREL high % RE scenario has significant gas plant capacity that is infrequently used. The gas plants could recharge batteries, in the same way it is done today off grid.

These numbers are far ahead of projections. I have a 2008 study that has utility scale solar at $.12 in 2030.

You are misinterpreting the cost of those pv systems. That is what the builder got in a PPO contract to sell the power generated. That is how they got the investors to help build them.

You have to remember those systems were able to get the 30% FED tax rebate along with other incentives or tax reductions from the state to build it there just to increase employment. But that won't happen in every state.

No question that the cost per watt goes down when you build the super pv arrays but will they continue to be cost affective once all the incentives go away?

Heck in Florida it is like pulling teeth from a gator to get the POCO's to invest in large arrays. It was only after a lot of bad press about the Sunshine state not having any type of solar incentive programs that the POCO's decided to build a few. But even then we may never catch up to what New Jersey has installed because the POCO's here know the cost to generate power from PV is more expensive then Nat Gas.

[donald]

Here are some costs for some utility scale solar projects from the end of last year:

http://www.solarplaza.com/article/top-5-cheapest-solar-kwhs-in-the-world

If you want to add utility scale batteries, pick a cost. At $200/kwh and a ten year life its less than $.06/kwh

The NREL high % RE scenario has significant gas plant capacity that is infrequently used. The gas plants could recharge batteries, in the same way it is done today off grid.

These numbers are far ahead of projections. I have a 2008 study that has utility scale solar at $.12 in 2030.

[russ]

I'm afraid your facts are pretty out of date. Coal and nuclear only make up about 60% of power production as of 2013. That continues to decrease every year as well.

With natural gas picking up the difference - unless you want to chatter about the fraction of one percent solar PV makes.

[russ]

US numbers as a whole are interesting, but Hawaii is the one with the big RE goals. According to the EIA, they are 75% oil, 15% coal (no new plants can be built) and the rest RE. When you look at how locked in they are with oil and the volatility of oil prices over the years/decades, the momentum behind getting away from oil is pretty clear.

Sounds cool - using the flashy words such as momentum is meaningless in itself - there must be something to give momentum to. Hawaii legislators are making a political stunt and nothing more as of today.