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  • #16
    Originally posted by Sunking View Post

    You can bet his battery was no where close to 100% because no way it got down to - 77 F. 1000's of people would have died.
    Based on that chart, I'd have to say the batteries were definitely at 50% or less. And since the temps were at -25 for 4 days straight, well.... ice cubes.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Matrix View Post
      What are you relying on to tell you you were at 90%/80%/60% .... with out testing the Specific Gravity you have no idea.

      And I might be wrong, but the problem in the cold might not have been Flood Acid Batteries, but rather (as you noted) not keeping them a bit warmer, and more specifically it seems if they froze solid they were not fully charged and / or badly stratified. Acid at the bottom, water at the top. Never fully charged, never EQ'd. Hard to tell from your details. Rolls says at -22*F the battery will have limited capacity down to about 40% but I cannot find on their site where they say do not operate below -XX *F. If I understand correctly, a fully charged Lead Acid battery will not freeze until -92*F

      I would think a better alternative to the AGM for the cost would be Trojan SPRE 06 255
      I checked out those batteries. It hits right on my $1500 budget. According to all the numbers, websites, cross-referencing and forums I'm on, my (9) 270w solar panels should be just fine for these batteries with no problems. Although one guy says I might cook the batteries, but I don't see how since the panels and batteries are matched at 48V.

      Comments?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by theojkett View Post

        I checked out those batteries. It hits right on my $1500 budget. According to all the numbers, websites, cross-referencing and forums I'm on, my (9) 270w solar panels should be just fine for these batteries with no problems. Although one guy says I might cook the batteries, but I don't see how since the panels and batteries are matched at 48V.

        Comments?
        Charge current. That is how.

        I do not recall what Charge Controller you are using, but you need to see what the max current is that the CC will produce with XX number of panels at XXX watts. The midnite solar sizing tool can help ... even if you do not have a mid nite solar CC, it will give you the idea of what the panels will do in various Series / Parallel connections in varies number of panels and wattage sizes.
        285Wx9 / MNClassic 150 / CSW4024 / TrojanL16H-ACx4

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        • #19
          You can also watch the amount of current being produced at different times of the year and turn off a string or 2 during hi peak production seasons. But the nice part about being over paneled, it will allow you to produce more energy in low light, and cloudy conditions than if you had "just enough". You just have to watch and see that you are not sending too much current to the batteries.
          285Wx9 / MNClassic 150 / CSW4024 / TrojanL16H-ACx4

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by theojkett View Post
            I checked out those batteries.
            The batteries in question are Trojan T-105RE with a new sticker on it. It is basically the exact same battery as the Trojan T-105 golf cart battery a 6-volt 225 AH battery in a GC2 case. GC2 is a BSI case of a physical size for a Golf Cart-2. The difference between the T-105 and T-105RE is the RE model has 5 more pounds of lead inside them which allows them to offer a longer warranty of 5 years vs 2 years for the standard T-105 (67 vs 62 pounds). They are a good battery, not quite the quality you had. The RE line is Trojans mid entry point battery. FWIW Trojans top line is Industrial Line and there is no better battery on the market.

            It would be in your best interest to look into a Rolls S-290 (4000 series) which is slightly better battery and carries a 7-year warranty for about the same price point (1 more pound of lead inside). Another brand and model to look at is US Battery REGC2H XC2 a 6-volt 242 AH battery and carries a 5 year warranty. Determine which gives you the most bang for your buck. I think you will find Rolls offers the best value. It is a toss up between Trojan and US Battery

            As for charge rates on any of three mentioned above you can easily go as high as C/6. On the Trojan and Rolls is 38 amps (1900 watts @ 48 volt), and up to 40 amps (2000 watts @ 48 volts) on the US Battery model.
            Last edited by Sunking; 04-04-2018, 03:02 PM.
            MSEE, PE

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            • #21
              Matrix - I do have a Midnight Solar Charge Controller. Very effective and easy to use and provides a lot of data on the LCD display.
              Sunking - Thanks for the tip. I'll check out those batteries as well.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by theojkett View Post
                Sunking - Thanks for the tip. I'll check out those batteries as well.
                You are welcome. You cannot go wrong with any of them. Point is your wallet will like one of them better. A local distributor is worth a few dollars more IMO.
                MSEE, PE

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sunking View Post
                  .A local distributor is worth a few dollars more IMO.
                  It is the local distributor that keeps me moving toward Trojan. No freight = lower overall price. But thanks for pointing out those other batteries. Definitely worth a look.

                  Also, theojkett
                  Make sure if you go down the Trojan road, there are 3 that you might find in the T-105 Family
                  - The Actual T-105 weighing in a 62 lbs
                  - The SSIG 06 255 that is badged as an RE (renewable energy battery) but I am not sure it is more than a re-badged T-105 ... same weight
                  - And the more expensive SPRE 06 255 which is the one that is 5 lbs heavier than the first 2
                  285Wx9 / MNClassic 150 / CSW4024 / TrojanL16H-ACx4

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Matrix View Post

                    Also, theojkett
                    Make sure if you go down the Trojan road, there are 3 that you might find in the T-105 Family
                    - The Actual T-105 weighing in a 62 lbs
                    - The SSIG 06 255 that is badged as an RE (renewable energy battery) but I am not sure it is more than a re-badged T-105 ... same weight
                    - And the more expensive SPRE 06 255 which is the one that is 5 lbs heavier than the first 2
                    The SSIG 06 255 is not quite the same as the T-105. Allow me to point out the differences you might have overlooked.

                    1. Look at dimension Height. T-105 is a GC2 case with a height of 11.15 inches, and the SSIG 06 255 height is 10.74
                    2. 20 Hour Capacity. T-105 = 225, SSIG 06 255 = 229 The 255 is the 100 Hour rating .
                    3. Absorb voltage T-105 = 7.41, SSIG 06 255 = 7.35
                    4. Term Post Types: T-105 offers 4 term types, SSIG 06 255 only offers 1 the ELPT
                    5. Cell Caps. T-105 offers 3 types of Bayonet, Master, and Hydro. SSIG 06 255 only offers Bayonet

                    FWIW warranty is the same 2 years. With all that said, the T-105 is a better battery between the two and I think in most markets slightly less expensive. The T-105 can handle higher charge and discharge currents which IMO makes it a better battery with a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG history of performance.

                    OK you can go back to hating me now.
                    MSEE, PE

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Sunking View Post

                      The SSIG 06 255 is not quite the same as the T-105. Allow me to point out the differences you might have overlooked.

                      1. Look at dimension Height. T-105 is a GC2 case with a height of 11.15 inches, and the SSIG 06 255 height is 10.74
                      2. 20 Hour Capacity. T-105 = 225, SSIG 06 255 = 229 The 255 is the 100 Hour rating .
                      3. Absorb voltage T-105 = 7.41, SSIG 06 255 = 7.35
                      4. Term Post Types: T-105 offers 4 term types, SSIG 06 255 only offers 1 the ELPT
                      5. Cell Caps. T-105 offers 3 types of Bayonet, Master, and Hydro. SSIG 06 255 only offers Bayonet

                      FWIW warranty is the same 2 years. With all that said, the T-105 is a better battery between the two and I think in most markets slightly less expensive. The T-105 can handle higher charge and discharge currents which IMO makes it a better battery with a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG history of performance.
                      Thanks. Awesome feed back. Great to know that about those 2. I had read your post from somewhere about Trojan re-labeling of their batteries and was not sure if this was an example. Now I see where I got my SSIG's mixed up from that post. Glad you pointed this out.

                      Originally posted by Sunking View Post
                      OK you can go back to hating me now.
                      Perhaps that can be said of some, I am not in the group sir. I am actually glad for an open forum like this where people with your experience actually take the time and patience to answer questions from people like me before we make the bad mistakes. If I visit the Mike Holt Electrical form, all i can do is read, because it is a trade only forum open to electricians. And trust me ... I have some electrician / code questions but no where (as of yet) where i can find to ask them ... and get actual answers from people who actually know the right answer, the reason why and the electrical code. So Thanks
                      Last edited by Matrix; 04-05-2018, 09:22 AM.
                      285Wx9 / MNClassic 150 / CSW4024 / TrojanL16H-ACx4

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Sunking View Post

                        As for charge rates on any of three mentioned above you can easily go as high as C/6. On the Trojan and Rolls is 38 amps (1900 watts @ 48 volt), and up to 40 amps (2000 watts @ 48 volts) on the US Battery model.
                        Sunking Just as a point of reference, What would be the Max charge rate of my Trojan L16H AC batteries? Could they also handle the C/6 rate you mentioned? Or would it be better to charge them in the C/8 to C10 range?

                        Originally posted by Sunking View Post
                        The T-105 can handle higher charge and discharge currents which IMO makes it a better battery with a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG history of performance.
                        And what would you say is the Max Discharge rate for the L16H AC ... in your opinion?
                        Last edited by Matrix; 04-05-2018, 12:19 PM.
                        285Wx9 / MNClassic 150 / CSW4024 / TrojanL16H-ACx4

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Matrix View Post
                          If I visit the Mike Holt Electrical form, all i can do is read, because it is a trade only forum open to electricians. And trust me ... I have some electrician / code questions but no where (as of yet) where i can find to ask them ... and get actual answers from people who actually know the right answer, the reason why and the electrical code. So Thanks
                          I am a moderator on Mike Holt and can answer most of your questions here. If I do not know, I know who does.

                          MSEE, PE

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Matrix View Post

                            Sunking And what would you say is the Max Discharge rate for the L16H AC ... in your opinion?
                            C/6 is no problem especially on Solar. Think about it; when was the last time you ever seen your battery charge at full power from the panels? Example lets say you have a 2000 watt panel array with 24 volt batteries. 2000 watts / 25 volts = 80 amps. Only time you might see it is if your batteries were heavily discharged for a few minutes around noon. So C/6 is no problem on Solar especially with Trojan batteries. Trojan batteries are just like Trojan condoms, they are tough stuff to blow out.

                            I do not recommend this but to give you an idea an authorized Trojan dealer warranty return shop has Trojan Battery Tester. There test will charge the battery at either 50 or 775 amps depending on the model (75 amps on T-105 or C/3), and will charge until the battery voltage reaches 2.7 vpc and current tapers to 7 amps. Then they discharge at 50 to 75 amps until 1.75 vpc and record AH. Battery passes equal to or greater than 51% spec capacity, and fails at 50% or less. Trust me they can easily handle C/6.

                            The C/8 to C/12 is a general rule of thumb that any FLA can handle. Really the only thing you need to worry about is C/12 and slower. Ideally you want C/10 or faster in a solar system. You do not have the luxury of time like you would using commercial AC power that has no restraints of time and power. Solar is extremely limited in both time and power.

                            On a solar charge controller manufactures claim their chargers Bulk stage is constant current which is complete BS. They are constant power, not constant current. The other issue is what is the power at any given moment in time? It will never be the spec power and it varies with time. Example lets say we have a 10 amp commercial AC charger and we set the charge voltage to 30 volts. We put a discharge battery on the charger and we see 10 amps @ say 24 volts initially. 10 amps x 24 volts = 240 watts. As the battery reaches 30 volt some 6 hours later now the charger is pumping 10 amps x 30 volts = 300 watts. Catch that? 240 to 300 watts..

                            Not solar. Although not possible but lets say we have a 10 amp controller into the same battery and panel wattage of 240 watts and remains remains constant at 240 watts. Initially we have 10 amps on the battery right? 240 watts / 24 volts = 10 amps. Now as the battery reaches full charge of 30 volts we notice we only have 240 watts / 30 volts = 8 amps. Understand the difference between constant current and constant power? They are two different animals. Now get real on solar you only have 4 to 6 sun hours in a day during summer, and 1/3 that in winter. AC power is 24 hours a day, every day, all year long.
                            Last edited by Sunking; 04-05-2018, 12:53 PM.
                            MSEE, PE

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Sunking View Post

                              I am a moderator on Mike Holt and can answer most of your questions here. If I do not know, I know who does.
                              I have never asked here because I do not know the appropriate forum/sub-forum here to discuss non-solar sub-panel related questions.

                              The previous owner of my house, who was also the builder and the electrician was a nut job and did some pretty non-code installations. I have spent the past 13 years slowly undoing and correcting much of what was done, but now between my solar sub panel, main panel, his sub panel, and grounding (especially ground and neutral relationships) ... It is almost too detailed to put into a single post that gives clarity to the whole picture. I would have to draw wiring diagrams that would probably not be engineering grade.

                              But the biggest question I have right now is a bonded neutral sub panel (not code) and the best way to correct it. My solar panel has actually given me some options I did not previously have, but it depends on how many neutrals I need to run to the solar sub panel. (see it gets confusing even trying to sum it up and have it make sense to anyone else without seeing it)

                              If I want to get into it I will start a thread somewhere here at SPT rather than hi-jack this thread
                              Last edited by Matrix; 04-05-2018, 02:49 PM.
                              285Wx9 / MNClassic 150 / CSW4024 / TrojanL16H-ACx4

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                I found these batteries. Everyone seems to like them a lot. Duracell Ultra 6V SLIGC115 Deep Cycle Golf Cart Battery. https://www.batteriesplus.com/productdetails/sligc115

                                Well within my budget. I kinda like these and they're cheaper than the T-105's.

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