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  • Hey SunKing, got a question for you

    You repeatedly say that batteries are not a good thing to use in a solar system setup. doing the math myself i'll agree with you.

    So what should someone do instead? I can think of two options(let me know if more)


    Grid tie. sounds simple enough, except that you no longer have control over what the power you harvested is used for, and you still have to deal with the electric utility which may or may not be acceptable to grid tie, aaaand you still have to pay the electric company unless you generate enough electric to offset the overhead fees they charge you.
    one month my summer bill to the utility was $50, $25 was for electric, $25 was for overhead.


    Use it or lose it. have a bunch of devices that use the power as soon as it is generated, back in the old days they used dump ballasts to convert excess electricity to waste heat. instead of just dumping heat into the air, you could have used it to heat hot water, or maybe heat a damp basement or something else.

    I'd like to try the second option, what would you suggest?

  • #2
    If you have net metering their is usually no benefit to dumping excess power into an opportunity load. Easier to sell it to POCO and buy it back when you need it.
    SunnyBoy 3000 US, 18 BP Solar 175B panels.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by tater1337 View Post
      Grid tie. sounds simple enough, except that you no longer have control over what the power you harvested is used for, and you still have to deal with the electric utility which may or may not be acceptable to grid tie,
      So exactly how is that a problem needing to be solved?

      You do not have that control with a battery system either. In fact roughly 30 to 50% of the power in a battery system is never used or generated to begin with. Think of a GTI as money. When you are making more money than you can spend, you put it in a bank for later use when you are not making money. With a Battery system, you just throw it up in the wind and never see it again. There is no loosing power with a Grid Tied System. Every watt generated by a GTI goes somewhere and is used immediately either by you or your neighbor. What gets sent out on the Grid you receive credit for.

      MSEE, PE

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Sunking View Post

        So exactly how is that a problem needing to be solved?

        You do not have that control with a battery system either. In fact roughly 30 to 50% of the power in a battery system is never used or generated to begin with. Think of a GTI as money. When you are making more money than you can spend, you put it in a bank for later use when you are not making money. With a Battery system, you just throw it up in the wind and never see it again. There is no loosing power with a Grid Tied System. Every watt generated by a GTI goes somewhere and is used immediately either by you or your neighbor. What gets sent out on the Grid you receive credit for.
        ok, that only works *IF* you are A) able to do grid tie and B ) the utility that does the grid tie is......sincere? I cannot think of a word that is opposite of lying, cheating, litigating, lobbying, heartless, crooks that I'd like to call the local utility.

        what if you can't? that is my more desired answer

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        • #5
          Originally posted by inetdog View Post
          If you have net metering their is usually no benefit to dumping excess power into an opportunity load. Easier to sell it to POCO and buy it back when you need it.
          easier? sounds like you haven't dealt with rural electric coops

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          • #6
            Originally posted by tater1337 View Post

            ok, that only works *IF* you are A) able to do grid tie and B ) the utility that does the grid tie is......sincere? I cannot think of a word that is opposite of lying, cheating, litigating, lobbying, heartless, crooks that I'd like to call the local utility.

            what if you can't? that is my more desired answer
            So which POCO do you feel is the one that is heartless, crooked, cheating, lying, etc?

            And if you really don't like dealing with them then go off grid and pay for generating your own electricity.

            Just don't figure on saving any money unless you have an Uncle that will give you free new batteries because while you may distrust your POCO you will still save money with a grit tie system or just use the grid and forget about solar. Why spend money on something that costs you more then just staying with the grid?

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            • #7
              Tater makes no difference if your Coop offers Net Metering or only pays you wholesale for excess. It is still going to be a fraction of the cost going off-grid. Coops are owned by the customers. not share holders holding stock. They are non profit and must be non-profit by LAW.
              MSEE, PE

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Sunking View Post
                Tater makes no difference if your Coop offers Net Metering or only pays you wholesale for excess. It is still going to be a fraction of the cost going off-grid. Coops are owned by the customers. not share holders holding stock. They are non profit and must be non-profit by LAW.
                Are Coops required by law to pay you for your power?

                Our PoCo does not pay for net-metering power, they charge you taxes on the power you generate.
                4400w, Midnite Classic 150 charge-controller.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by organic farmer View Post

                  Are Coops required by law to pay you for your power?

                  Our PoCo does not pay for net-metering power, they charge you taxes on the power you generate.
                  Sounds like you have a POCO that is desperate to stay in the black. I believe TVA has similar tactics.

                  If you can't get net metering and still have to pay some type of fee then I guess you would have to do the math to see if you still save some money by generating your own power for a small part of the day. If the fees and taxes are more than what you save then why install your own power generation? Wouldn't you would be paying more to your POCO?
                  Last edited by SunEagle; 06-05-2016, 08:14 PM. Reason: added last sentence

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by SunEagle View Post
                    If the fees and taxes are more than what you save then why install your own power generation? Wouldn't you would be paying more to your POCO?
                    because the cheating, litigating, lobbying, heartless, crooks 'pose' as co-ops but are only interested in getting your money, if they think you found a way to pay them less money, they'll find a way to charge more money. they don't care for the customers, they care for the major stakeholders. co-opc only in name and barely following the rules just for a nice tax shelter. and denying any and all wrongdoing on their end

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by tater1337 View Post

                      because the cheating, litigating, lobbying, heartless, crooks 'pose' as co-ops but are only interested in getting your money, if they think you found a way to pay them less money, they'll find a way to charge more money. they don't care for the customers, they care for the major stakeholders. co-opc only in name and barely following the rules just for a nice tax shelter. and denying any and all wrongdoing on their end
                      I can say the same thing for insurance companies but I guess while I can change my insurance you can't change your POCO.

                      I feel bad for you but have no really good answer to your situation then to tell you to either move somewhere else or just learn to live with the way the co-op runs their business. You really can't fight city hall or some businesses unless you have very deep pockets. Is fighting for what you believe is right worth all the stress you are living through?
                      Last edited by SunEagle; 06-05-2016, 08:43 PM. Reason: spelling

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by SunEagle View Post

                        Is fighting for what you believe is right worth all the stress you are living through?
                        no, that is why i moved. the place in question is a house that i was living in, still pay the mortgage on. I guess i'll be the bigger man and offer an olive branch to them and see what they say about grid tie. maybe they've had a change in board members or in their mentality. i'd be surprised if they did, large families in small towns tend to stay archaic

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by tater1337 View Post
                          I'd like to try the second option, what would you suggest?
                          When grid-tie/paralleled with the utility you are in a "captive market" with the utility. As already suggested, you can't get out of that market completely unless you go completely off grid. Theoretically you can look more like a "standard customer" who is very efficient if you self-consume the power you generate. However, because the utility is lord over anything that ties in with their system, they can still work to penalize you if you self-consume via your electric system.

                          There are products for producing hot water electrically directly from PV and without grid support which is now more logical than solar-thermal in my opinion, though not necessarily more logical than gas.

                          A better goal might be to produce your space heating and cooling energy when you can, with PV system putting energy into a refrigerant loop for both heating and cooling. In theory the grid could also serve the same refrigerant loop, but would be electrically decoupled. You have some work to figure out how to make this work and what you already own that would have to be scrapped to make it work. But multi-zone VRF heat pump technology might be the future in this regard, if not otherwise feasible right now.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by adoublee View Post

                            When grid-tie/paralleled with the utility you are in a "captive market" with the utility. As already suggested, you can't get out of that market completely unless you go completely off grid. Theoretically you can look more like a "standard customer" who is very efficient if you self-consume the power you generate. However, because the utility is lord over anything that ties in with their system, they can still work to penalize you if you self-consume via your electric system.

                            There are products for producing hot water electrically directly from PV and without grid support which is now more logical than solar-thermal in my opinion, though not necessarily more logical than gas.

                            A better goal might be to produce your space heating and cooling energy when you can, with PV system putting energy into a refrigerant loop for both heating and cooling. In theory the grid could also serve the same refrigerant loop, but would be electrically decoupled. You have some work to figure out how to make this work and what you already own that would have to be scrapped to make it work. But multi-zone VRF heat pump technology might be the future in this regard, if not otherwise feasible right now.
                            It still comes down to what it costs to purchase equipment to generate power for your appliances or to purchase that power from your POCO even if they are nasty.

                            If you want to be totally off grid then that is a choice to be made. But for most places generating any of your power is more expensive the purchasing that power from the POCO. The choice is yours along with the lifestyle that comes along with only running appliances during the day light and not running anything that is not critical to your life at night. It can be done but for most of our US population (especially with teenagers) reducing your electric consumption is worse then getting your wisdom teeth pulled without any novacaine.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by organic farmer View Post

                              Are Coops required by law to pay you for your power?

                              Our PoCo does not pay for net-metering power, they charge you taxes on the power you generate.
                              No sir, they are not regulated by state utility boards. Investor owned utilities are regulated. In most states regulated utilities by Law are mandated to offer Net Metering. They have no choice or say about it. If given the choice, no utility would offer you retail price for what you generate as that is just plain stupid policy. It artificially raises the rates for everyone to make up for the losses. Regulators allow utilities to jack up the price on everyone to cover the expenses of net metering. Everyone looses except the solar users getting free money and subsidies. All the rest are paying for it, not the solar users.

                              Coops are not Investor owned, and non profit. They are not required to offer you anything. In TX most coops will not even allow you to connect solar. Those that do, only pay you wholesale for excess you generate, and retail for what you buy from them. They do that in fairness to all their customers to keep rates low. No free rides.

                              A couple of Coops in TX do offer Net Metering, but there is a catch. Your neighbors pay 8 to 10 cents per Kwh for all they want. Solar users pay a higher rate of 11 to 13 cents. Credits are only forwarded up to one year. If you do not use them, you loose them.

                              Go off grid in the USA, or use battery power, then just battery cost alone you will be paying 60-cent to $1 per Kwh. That is just Nucking Futs.
                              Last edited by Sunking; 06-06-2016, 01:03 PM.
                              MSEE, PE

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