My New Favorite Battery.

[PNjunction]

The product line is Trojans Industrial Line with Smart Carbon Technology. Like any new release in batteries, I am always skeptical, but the IEC 61427 testing program is not only being done by Trojan, but also Sandia National Labs and both are showing similar results. Trojan released the Smart Carbon Technology in their RE and Industrial lines about a year ago. The Industrial line has a 8 year warranty and made to operate in PSOC range. Trojans Industrial line was originally developed for the fork lift market, but now being marketed to the RE market.

That's actually pretty cool. The whole carbon / graphite additive intrigued me, so I operated an Exide AGM with graphite in psoc operations and was impressed with the curve, although I didn't take the battery to destruction.

I'm glad to see Trojan getting actively involved, and this is a first for me to see it in flooded format. For a few years the whole carbon / graphite additive seemed to be aimed primarily at the micro-hybrid stop/start vehicles, and wondered if the same tech would end up on flooded and a direct aim at the RE market as well.

The last I remember of this type of tech was what, Axion (NOT Aquion!) and a few others too. Wonder what happened there...

As much as I like lifepo4, the carbon / graphite tech for lead is something I'd look long and hard at with RE for sure.

[alterego]

I have been watching a particular battery that has been undergoing IEC 61427 since 2010 and as of today has just over 2500 cycles which is almost unheard of. IEC 61427 is a grueling test protocol for testing RE batteries using real life operating procedures. For one to give you an idea is the batteries are submerged into a 40 degree Celsius water bath to control temperature which is hot. The test is done in the PSOS range of 20 to 80% DOD which is realistically where solar and wind systems operate.

Anyway this battery product line looks to be a solid 8 to 10 year battery from a battery manufacture that has been in business since 1925 and will be around for a long time. They are most notable known for Golf Cart and Floor Machine batteries. Yep Trojan.

The product line is Trojans Industrial Line with Smart Carbon Technology. Like any new release in batteries, I am always skeptical, but the IEC 61427 testing program is not only being done by Trojan, but also Sandia National Labs and both are showing similar results. Trojan released the Smart Carbon Technology in their RE and Industrial lines about a year ago. The Industrial line has a 8 year warranty and made to operate in PSOC range. Trojans Industrial line was originally developed for the fork lift market, but now being marketed to the RE market.

Before anyone rushes out to buy a set take notice these are serious batteries, no such thing as a small capacity in this line up. The smallest is a 6 volt @ 465 AH battery and the largest is 2 volts @ 1850 AH. So these batteries are made for serious off-grid users of 24 to 60 volt systems and up.

For this type of quality you are going to pay a premium of about $330 per Kwh. If you calculate 8 year service using 5 day autonomy you are looking a paying 56-cents per Kwh in battery cost. Not bad considering the #2 contender is 65-cents per Kwh. With the PSOC capabilities of the battery you can realistically lower Autonomy to 4 days giving you a real 3 day reserve and that drop cost to 46-cents per Kwh battery cost. Sounds expensive and it is, but we are talking off-grid solar and these batteries are the least expensive on the market, and fortunately the best on the market in FLA batteries. Pretty much puts the Lithium batteries out of business in the RE market. Trojan Industrial line last longer than any lithium and half the initial price.

do you have a link to a resale that I could actually check the for sale price on these. I have been crusing the web looking but I can not find this new technology battery for sale.

[Bala]

do you have a link to a resale that I could actually check the for sale price on these. I have been crusing the web looking but I can not find this new technology battery for sale.

If you want some ballpark prices, find the model battery you want then google it, like this example

"IND27-2V Deep-Cycle Flooded price"

[Sunking]

do you have a link to a resale that I could actually check the for sale price on these. I have been crusing the web looking but I can not find this new technology battery for sale.

You should not have any problems finding them as they have been on the market for some time now. Smart Carbon is the Marketing name bu tyou have to look for the product number. Here are some that I know of

T-105RE
LR16RE-A
LR16RE-B
L16RE-2V
IND9-6V
IND13-6V
IND17-6V

Those are most of them. Just look in Trojans website IND line up

[Willy T]

Smart Carbon as opposed to Dumb Carbon that has been added to grid / plate paste ever since the last solid plate battery was made. Interstate Battery has made some pure lead plates in some batteries in the last couple of years though. Whatever Smart Carbon is, it requires some charging voltage differences from their old batteries since the rate of charge acceptance is different.

Carbon is added to the expander to improve the conductivity of the active material. It assists in the initial formation and improves performance during deep discharges where the concentration of highly resistant lead sulfate is high. It is usually added to the expander formula in an amount equal to the lignosulfonate. (E. Willihnganz. Transactions of the Electrochemical Society, 92, (1947)

[bberry]

Two caveats on the RE line: 1) Keeping them cool, and 2) Proper maintenance. If either is lacking, these will get no where near rated life. But these aren't too pricey either for a more premium battery.
Trojan's watering system is interesting too. I like how they seem to be focused on real user needs.

[Willy T]

Two caveats on the RE line: 1) Keeping them cool, and 2) Proper maintenance. If either is lacking, these will get no where near rated life. But these aren't too pricey either for a more premium battery.
Trojan's watering system is interesting too. I like how they seem to be focused on real user needs.

Great advise for any FLA Battery.

[Amy@altE]

do you have a link to a resale that I could actually check the for sale price on these. I have been cruising the web looking but I can not find this new technology battery for sale.

We've got them available. http://www.solarreviews.com/solar-di...rs/alte-store/

A few examples of price:
6 volt @ 465 AH IND9-6V $834
6V 695Ah IND13-6V $1138
4 volt 1618Ah IND29-4V $1500

[Amy@altE]

Can you use a 350 to 450 volt battery Inverter and do they exist? Sure do just about all commercial UPS use high voltage DC inverters. But those are Commercial and Industrial grade Battery Inverters and come with a commercial industrial price tag. They also operate in the 6 and 7 digit wattage range.

I know the next response and question from the Green Blind crowd: Grid Tied Inverters operate at that voltage. Well they most certainly do but that has nothing to do with a BATTERY INVERTER. What it will take is a Hybrid Inverter and all those on the market are made for 12, 24, and 48 volt systems all operating under that magic 50 volt limit the Green Blind Crowd keeps ignoring and does not want to hear about. It can be done, but none exist that I know of for the consumer markets. What you wanna bet that is Tesla next move?

Tesla updated their press page with inverter news. Both Fronius and SolarEdge are working with them with a hybrid inverter.

Fronius and Tesla have partnered on a global level to offer Powerwall in combination with the Fronius Symo Hybrid inverter as a seamless solution for residential PV systems. For new PV installations, homeowners can use the Fronius inverter to operate both the PV and Powerwall, which reduces the overall system cost. For homeowners that already have solar PV, the Fronius inverter can be added to the system (AC coupled) or replace the existing inverter (DC coupled), and the Fronius solution will function with any type of solar energy system. This makes the Fronius plus Tesla solution a highly flexible solution across the globe.

SolarEdge, a leader in the global PV inverter market, and Tesla partnered for the joint development of a PV storage and backup power solution for the worldwide residential solar market. Building on SolarEdge’s proven DC optimized inverter proven and Tesla's leading automotive-grade battery technology, the solution will require only a single SolarEdge inverter to manage both PV and storage functions. The system is designed for efficient, outdoor installation and includes remote monitoring and troubleshooting to keep operations and maintenance costs low.

[bberry]

We've got them available. http://www.solarreviews.com/solar-di...rs/alte-store/

A few examples of price:
6 volt @ 465 AH IND9-6V $834
6V 695Ah IND13-6V $1138
4 volt 1618Ah IND29-4V $1500

Looks like the purchase price of Aquion for residential off grid is about 2.5-3x these prices. Considering the time value of money, the Aquions would need to last about 4x as long.

[Willy T]

Tesla updated their press page with inverter news. Both Fronius and SolarEdge are working with them with a hybrid inverter.

Fronius and Tesla have partnered on a global level to offer Powerwall in combination with the Fronius Symo Hybrid inverter as a seamless solution for residential PV systems. For new PV installations, homeowners can use the Fronius inverter to operate both the PV and Powerwall, which reduces the overall system cost. For homeowners that already have solar PV, the Fronius inverter can be added to the system (AC coupled) or replace the existing inverter (DC coupled), and the Fronius solution will function with any type of solar energy system. This makes the Fronius plus Tesla solution a highly flexible solution across the globe.

SolarEdge, a leader in the global PV inverter market, and Tesla partnered for the joint development of a PV storage and backup power solution for the worldwide residential solar market. Building on SolarEdge’s proven DC optimized inverter proven and Tesla's leading automotive-grade battery technology, the solution will require only a single SolarEdge inverter to manage both PV and storage functions. The system is designed for efficient, outdoor installation and includes remote monitoring and troubleshooting to keep operations and maintenance costs low.

Didn't take others long to jump on the train before it leaves the station. The others will be left in the dust. I'll make the SMA TL-US look like a gimmick, with the battery, it's a game changer.

[SunEagle]

Didn't take others long to jump on the train before it leaves the station. The others will be left in the dust. I'll make the SMA TL-US look like a gimmick, with the battery, it's a game changer.

With the additional vendors coming on board it looks like the market for that Tesla battery is growing. I still don't know how long the battery will last but it is possible the installed cost will come down a bit from that $7000.

[Willy T]

With the additional vendors coming on board it looks like the market for that Tesla battery is growing. I still don't know how long the battery will last but it is possible the installed cost will come down a bit from that $7000.

This is true, depends on how good it does. If it's all automatic and requires no consumer intervention, It'll be a plus. Tesla should have enough experience to make that happen.

[SunEagle]

This is true, depends on how good it does. If it's all automatic and requires no consumer intervention, It'll be a plus. Tesla should have enough experience to make that happen.

I found out that just about everything requires some type of maintenance or consumer intervention over it's lifetime.

Except for a brick. As long it is just a brick then there is nothing to maintain or worry about. Once it gets used to build a wall or a roadway then you have to maintain it.

[Amy@altE]

Looks like the purchase price of Aquion for residential off grid is about 2.5-3x these prices. Considering the time value of money, the Aquions would need to last about 4x as long.

Don't forget the convenience of low maintenance. People are willing to pay a premium to not have to babysit their batteries. Many are willing to pay 2x for AGM over flooded.