Flywheel instead of battery storage?

[Sunking]

That flywheel technology has not progressed as fast as the simpler big power plant technology, nor has the function it provides (load leveling/utility scale storage/frequency stabilization) been needed as much in the past.

Hummm, Flywheel electric energy as been around over 100 years and was used as the very first UPS systems. Just how much more time are you talking about with a very mature technology?

[inetdog]

And the technology of super conducting wires has been around since the 60's but they still have not come up with a working solution due to the extreme cold temperatures needed to make the wire work.

Interestingly, the biggest practical problem is not the required low temperature (which is admittedly annoying). It is that it is hard to maintain superconductivity in the presence of a strong magnetic field, and a wire carrying high current can be counted on to produce a magnetic field.

[SunEagle]

Interestingly, the biggest practical problem is not the required low temperature (which is admittedly annoying). It is that it is hard to maintain superconductivity in the presence of a strong magnetic field, and a wire carrying high current can be counted on to produce a magnetic field.

Getting a Super conducting distribution system to work would be a major win for the Utility business but as you said not only is the low temperature a barrier there are other obstacles like the magnetic field issue that have to be knocked down to make the technology work.

As with the Flywheel technology. There are a lot of barriers in place to make it physically as well as economically to work.

I am still hoping for the "black hole" technology for an energy source.

[FunGas]

flywheels have some potential

sorry, but that made me spit my drink on the screen...

[SunEagle]

sorry, but that made me spit my drink on the screen...

Actually the have inertia but I guess kinetic potential too.

[Dave3011]

Actually the have inertia but I guess kinetic potential too.

An exciting prospect it this technology ever makes it mainstream is going to bed at night, sleeping with that comforting knowledge that there's a two-ton flywheel spinning at thousands of miles per hour underneath your bed hehehehehe...

[billvon]

An exciting prospect it this technology ever makes it mainstream is going to bed at night, sleeping with that comforting knowledge that there's a two-ton flywheel spinning at thousands of miles per hour underneath your bed hehehehehe...

And it vibrates you to sleep, too.

[walltr8der]

Ceo

Being an engineer in my day job I have learnt over and over again that the simplest solutions are always the best.

By their very nature batteries are complex, hence their need to be mollycoddled so much. Nothing can be simpler than accellerating mass to store energy. The problem as always is that we humans haven't figured out how to do it "simply and effectively" yet.

"Two brains are better than one", and therefore 10's to 100's or even upwards of 1000 should be far better. The more people we get thinking about it the more likely it is that some genuis somewhere will give it enough thought to have that eurika moment to make it work.

I don't claim to have found any secret or disruptive technology, but I do hope to stimulate a discussion that may in turn stimulate some of the brighter minds on this planet - some of the minds possesed by the likes who invented the lightbulb, the internet, photovoltaics etc. Then maybe one day hairy-arsed engineers like me would no longer have to suffer the endless frustrations associated with batteries...

Hi Dave... The guys at Energy Storage Solutions have been working on the above mentioned issues for years.. Guys at MIT, Texas A&M and the Univ of Toronto were working with us to develop this disruptive flywheel. I think when you drill down, you will see what we have devised. Development of a flywheel takes multi-level brain power..Electric Engineering Mechanical Engineering and many other understandings for it to be successful..Actually, it amazes me! There is nothing better than to prove everybody wrong. If done correctly, flywheels work....Cheers!

[billvon]

Interestingly, the biggest practical problem is not the required low temperature (which is admittedly annoying). It is that it is hard to maintain superconductivity in the presence of a strong magnetic field . . . .

?? Almost every MRI magnet in the country is made of superconducting wire. There are thousands of them, and operate at field strengths up to 7 tesla. Did you mean 'changing magnetic field?'

[russ]

I think when you drill down, you will see what we have devised.

With what there is on your web site one finds zip upon drilling.

If you want people to get in line you really do need to provide a bit more information/detail and a lot less of the "trust me".

[walltr8der]

Of course I knew I'd see guys on this thread that claim to have done it already. These are the same people that claim to have come up with lithium batteries that have comparable energy densities to gasoline. Yes I know very well it's theoretically possible and maybe even working in a laboratory somewhere. The problem is why aren't they at all the solar installation companies in the the industrial sectors of every city yet? Answer is they aren't tried and tested or economically viable yet. The point of this thread is to get people talking about why they aren't there yet. What are the snags? What's holding progress back? One thing I do know for a fact is it's not low lead acid battery prices - while PV costs and other battery costs have been coming down lead acid is on the way up. If trends continue soon lead acid will no longer be the most cost effective way. A BIG GAP in the market is busy opening up!

Dave --It's money!! Testing cost lots.... My prototype works very well and the private enterprises don't want it to happen ---It's a fight to the end.... The engineers @ Krupp love it but the guys in the board room will not sign a check! Wasted 9 months with them... All politics....

[walltr8der]

An exciting prospect it this technology ever makes it mainstream is going to bed at night, sleeping with that comforting knowledge that there's a two-ton flywheel spinning at thousands of miles per hour underneath your bed hehehehehe...

Dave a 10 kWh device weighs 1400lbs.. No maglev bearings

[walltr8der]

And it vibrates you to sleep, too.

Does not vibrate --Let's be serious Can't even hear it!

[Sunking]

Hi Dave... The guys at Energy Storage Solutions have been working on the above mentioned issues for years.. Guys at MIT, Texas A&M and the Univ of Toronto were working with us to develop this disruptive flywheel. I think when you drill down, you will see what we have devised. Development of a flywheel takes multi-level brain power..Electric Engineering Mechanical Engineering and many other understandings for it to be successful..Actually, it amazes me! There is nothing better than to prove everybody wrong. If done correctly, flywheels work....Cheers!

The proof is in the MARKET. I design Data and Communication Centers professionally for the last 35 years, even was on a nuke sub for 3 years. Not a single commercial flywheel UPS out there. Batteries and generators are far superior, less expensive, more efficient, safer, and more reliable. Until that changes, flywheels are ancient technology like 8-track and cassette tapes.

[inetdog]

?? Almost every MRI magnet in the country is made of superconducting wire. There are thousands of them, and operate at field strengths up to 7 tesla. Did you mean 'changing magnetic field?'

OK, it is a combination of both.
Some low temperature (less than 5 degrees K) superconductors can tolerate a constant or slowly changing field up to 25T or higher. But for rapidly changing fields, the eddy currents in the structure surrounding the superconductor add so much heat that it becomes too difficult to keep the conductor itself cool enough.
And as you go to higher transition temperatures, more practical for long transmission distances using DC, the critical field goes down drastically.
The ideal material with both high critical field and high transition temperature is still a distant goal.
Back when I was at Stanford the grad students contributed a skit to the annual show in which they applied for a grant to build a room cooled to liquid helium temperatures as an alternate way to produce a room temperature superconductor.