Trojan T-105 vs Crown 235 and what's wrong with parallel?

[Sunking]

For off-grid systems I consider the GC-2's to be absolute bottom of the barrel.

Not too mention Golf Cart batteries are not True Deep Cycle batteries, they are hybrids. Golf Cart batteries are marketing names for hybrids like Marine Deep Cycle, RV, and Leisure. If you don't believe it then here is the proof. Trojan makes two versions of the T-105. One is the ole standard Golf Cart T-105 and it weighs in at 62 pounds soaking wet. They also make a T-105RE which is a true Deep cycle with 5 more pounds of lead in them. Warranties and cycle life are radically different between the two.

10 15 years ago there were no real good choices for off-grid folks which forced them to use golf cart and floor machine batteries because that is all there was around. Things have changed and now manufactures are now offering batteries made to work with RE applications. One reason for that is manufactures were getting hammered with warranty claims and that is due to RE applications rarely ever get the batteries fully recharged to 100% nor do they ever take the time to do proper maintenance most importantly Equalizing Charges as required.

Si I agree using a Golf Cart battery may not be a good choice for RE with one exception where higher discharge rates of C/8 are encountered. Ah per AH hybrid batteries have lower internal resistance and can deliver higher discharge rates without excessive voltage sag. But to get that you have to sacrifice cycle life with thinner, lighter, and more plates. Dead give away you have a hybrid battery is if you see a RC or cranking amp spec. True Deep Cycle batteries will not likely have a RC or CA spec just AH at some given discharge rate.

[Sunking]

I have never seen a GC-2 from any manufacturer still be serviceable after 5-6 years.

Neither have I after 35 years ans thousands of batteries. Guess we are all unlucky. Industry standard test for capacity is 80% of spec AH. Never seen one test at 80% capacity after 3 years. They can make 2 years @ 80% to cover warranty, but never seen one go 3 years.

[ChrisOlson]

Indeed I may have misunderstood, or not read carefully enough.

For off-grid systems I consider the GC-2's to be absolute bottom of the barrel. They're cheap because they're mass produced in great quantity compared to other types. But because they are only 232ah, it's hard to build a system with them that has any real capacity. My experience with them has been that in off-grid duty, full time, they are 5-6 year batteries. Where a typical L-16 is a 7-8 year battery.

[BatteryMan23]

[QUOTE=ChrisOlson;126992]When we bought our battery bank we sized it to still be serviceable down to 50% of original capacity, at which point it must be replaced, based on our daily loads (58 kWh battery bank). Frankly the only folks I've seen that live off-grid and are still using their batteries after they have degraded to 25% original capacity are people that have forklift batteries that were way too big for what they needed in the first place.


I didn't say the folks in the UP were using batteries at 25% capacity. I said they've reported using their batteries for 5 years and still getting good runtime.

[ChrisOlson]

The most common application for both the CR-235 and the T-105 is for Golf Carts. When used moderately and taken care of the average life-span of a T-105 is 12 years. I have personally seen them 16 years old and still testing over 25% of capacity.

When we bought our battery bank we sized it to still be serviceable down to 50% of original capacity, at which point it must be replaced, based on our daily loads (58 kWh battery bank). Frankly the only folks I've seen that live off-grid and are still using their batteries after they have degraded to 25% original capacity are people that have forklift batteries that were way too big for what they needed in the first place. I've seen some of those folks using a basically dead forklift battery that has been in their battery room for 20 years. In all the full-time off-grid systems I have seen, I have never seen a GC-2 from any manufacturer still be serviceable after 5-6 years. On daily cycling duty 365 days a year they just don't stand up that well because they only have .180" plates. Batteries that will truly last 10 years or more on off-grid daily cycling duty, or extended cycling with many days between full charges, like our Surrette 5000's or forklift batteries, have plates that are .250-.260".

There has been no significant advancements in lead-acid battery technology since they were first invented over 100 years ago. The ones that last for a decade or more and still deliver decent service are heavy, you can't move it without mechanized lifting equipment, and they have very thick grids with deep sumps and almost 50% of the electrolyte per cell in reserve over the tops of the grids. GC-2's are not one of those.

[BatteryMan23]

I see where you are coming from. Besides good maintenance and luck, acceptable battery life can be determined based on it's use. I wouldn't necessarily call a battery with only 25% of capacity "alive". .

Acceptable battery life is up to the person whose operating the equipment in question. As a consumer, and a supplier who defers to the customers needs, a batteries life is over when it's not doing the job it is intended to. That could be diminished reserve capacity affecting the runtime or diminished amperage which can affect the health of the equipment. You have to know what your limits are for both.
In general even the most experienced person does not realize when the performance of a deep cycle battery drops from 100% to 90% or down to 80%. You can say you do, but in actuality it's not until the battery life reaches 60-70% capacity that most equipment starts to show signs that the batteries aren't performing in "acceptable" ranges. The equipment that is used to test deep cycle batteries is also extremely expensive and generally only found at plants or testing facilities. A standard carbon-pile (analog or digital) load tester is not an accurate test of capacity for deep cycle batteries. Batteries have to be cycled and monitored with right test equipment. So basically when someone says "This battery isn't cutting it anymore", that's when it's time to replace.

In a battle of brands and models, you stand to do just fine with any battery not built in china or mexico. I prefer batteries made in the US like Trojan, Crown or US Battery.

[ChrisOlson]

Your opinion is your opinion no matter what experience it's based off of. I'm the warehouse manager for a multi-million dollar battery company that deals in every major brand of battery on the market with the exception of Interstate. (which is just glorified JC)

I'd like to point out that while Interstate's automotive and marine batteries are made by Johnson Controls (and they are primarily a marketer of Johnson Controls batteries), their industrial batteries are manufactured by US Battery. Any of their part numbers that start with "U" are made by US Battery, and that includes some of their GC-2's.

[russ]

I have personally seen them 16 years old and still testing over 25% of capacity.

25% capacity is DED - though I suppose you could have an immense bank of batteries with 25% capacity? That is a bit nutz!

[SunEagle]

The most common application for both the CR-235 and the T-105 is for Golf Carts. When used moderately and taken care of the average life-span of a T-105 is 12 years. I have personally seen them 16 years old and still testing over 25% of capacity. The CR-235's are not as widely sold but most of the ones we see coming in are between 8-12 years old. Even your lower grade Exide GC-Bs will average 8 years of service in this application.
Life-span is again affected by quality, maintenance, and luck. The application they are used for may decide if you need more or less of one of those 3 things. These batteries are also used for solar, boats, motor-coaches, man-lifts, scissor lifts, pallet jacks, floor scrubbers, and a number of other DC applications.
I have customers in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan that use T-105s and GC-Bs to power their homes and cabins. Some of them are using sets of 6,8,12,18, & 24. A lot of them have reported that after 5 years they are still getting excellent runtime. They also tend to take extremely good care of their equipment because of the significant investment they have in their systems.
Occasionally some one might have 1 or 2 of these batteries fail before expected in various applications but very rarely a whole set unless they've been abused or neglected.

I see where you are coming from. Besides good maintenance and luck, acceptable battery life can be determined based on it's use. I wouldn't necessarily call a battery with only 25% of capacity "alive". Maybe if it is used in a golf cart but you may not get the full 18 holes in without a boost somewhere along the course. I worked in a cart barn many years ago and know what it is like to go get a cart that has stopped working out on the 15th green. A couple of those issues caused enough flak toward the course owners telling them that they needed to replace the batteries sooner than later.

So if you have the ability and desire to keep the battery charged and properly maintained yet knowing it will not produce anywhere near as much as it was new, it could be considered still living. Although not something I would want to have for my solar battery system or even my Class A RV coach batteries. It is usually bad luck that hits me when I need that battery the most.

Thank you for your feedback.

[mapmaker]

I have personally seen them 16 years old and still testing over 25% of capacity.

That explains a lot about your views on battery life. Most battery manufacturers consider a battery dead when it tests to only 80% capacity. A battery with only 25% capacity is not much use to me... unless it's 4 times larger than it needs to be.

--mapmaker

[BatteryMan23]

I am curious as to how either the CR-235 or T-105 can last 10-14 years. Are they being cycled daily to some DOD% or are they on a float charge and used as an emergency backup once or twice a year? What is the procedure for someone to follow to get that 10 to 14 year life?

The most common application for both the CR-235 and the T-105 is for Golf Carts. When used moderately and taken care of the average life-span of a T-105 is 12 years. I have personally seen them 16 years old and still testing over 25% of capacity. The CR-235's are not as widely sold but most of the ones we see coming in are between 8-12 years old. Even your lower grade Exide GC-Bs will average 8 years of service in this application.
Life-span is again affected by quality, maintenance, and luck. The application they are used for may decide if you need more or less of one of those 3 things. These batteries are also used for solar, boats, motor-coaches, man-lifts, scissor lifts, pallet jacks, floor scrubbers, and a number of other DC applications.
I have customers in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan that use T-105s and GC-Bs to power their homes and cabins. Some of them are using sets of 6,8,12,18, & 24. A lot of them have reported that after 5 years they are still getting excellent runtime. They also tend to take extremely good care of their equipment because of the significant investment they have in their systems.
Occasionally some one might have 1 or 2 of these batteries fail before expected in various applications but very rarely a whole set unless they've been abused or neglected.

[SunEagle]

Laymens are uniformed or ignorant. Battery life is based on rated capacity and is what the manufacture bases its warranty from. A battery is considered expired when it can no long hold 90 and 75% of its rated capacity. So if you see a warranty of 12/24 the manufacture is telling you at 12 months the capacity should be roughly 90% of its rated capacity, and 75% after 24 months.
Catch is a laymen cannot measure battery capacity and has no idea what the capacity is. All they know is it does not do what it use to do. If the user abuses the battery and say discharges it 80% each day will wonder why it failed in a year or less when he was told it should last 3 years.
So if you want to know which battery will last longer, look at the warranty.

Your opinion is your opinion no matter what experience it's based off of. I'm the warehouse manager for a multi-million dollar battery company that deals in every major brand of battery on the market with the exception of Interstate. (which is just glorified JC)
Warranties are for marketing only and should never be used as a gauge for how long a battery will last. Some of the best warranties on the market are attached to batteries with the highest failure rates. Warranties are a way of offering customers a sense of reliability while ensuring that the customer will return to the place they purchased the battery for a replacement if it fails.

Battery life is based on manufacturing, maintenance, and of course luck. If you buy a good brand you take care of it, with a little bit of luck you'll get a decent life cycle. 99% of the population would never notice a run-time difference between a CR-235 and a T-105. I sell both batteries. They are both capable of lasting 10-14 years. The T-105 however is more widely sold, so the numbers of course are in it's favor.
You are right however that battery companies do fudge their #s just as auto manufacturers do.

I am curious as to how either the CR-235 or T-105 can last 10-14 years. Are they being cycled daily to some DOD% or are they on a float charge and used as an emergency backup once or twice a year? What is the procedure for someone to follow to get that 10 to 14 year life?

[BatteryMan23]

Incorrect assumptions

Laymens are uniformed or ignorant. Battery life is based on rated capacity and is what the manufacture bases its warranty from. A battery is considered expired when it can no long hold 90 and 75% of its rated capacity. So if you see a warranty of 12/24 the manufacture is telling you at 12 months the capacity should be roughly 90% of its rated capacity, and 75% after 24 months.
Catch is a laymen cannot measure battery capacity and has no idea what the capacity is. All they know is it does not do what it use to do. If the user abuses the battery and say discharges it 80% each day will wonder why it failed in a year or less when he was told it should last 3 years.
So if you want to know which battery will last longer, look at the warranty.[/QUOTE]

Your opinion is your opinion no matter what experience it's based off of. I'm the warehouse manager for a multi-million dollar battery company that deals in every major brand of battery on the market with the exception of Interstate. (which is just glorified JC)
Warranties are for marketing only and should never be used as a gauge for how long a battery will last. Some of the best warranties on the market are attached to batteries with the highest failure rates. Warranties are a way of offering customers a sense of reliability while ensuring that the customer will return to the place they purchased the battery for a replacement if it fails.

Battery life is based on manufacturing, maintenance, and of course luck. If you buy a good brand you take care of it, with a little bit of luck you'll get a decent life cycle. 99% of the population would never notice a run-time difference between a CR-235 and a T-105. I sell both batteries. They are both capable of lasting 10-14 years. The T-105 however is more widely sold, so the numbers of course are in it's favor.
You are right however that battery companies do fudge their #s just as auto manufacturers do.

[Sub]

Is parallel ok?

I am a perfect example of a "layman", but my experience is this. Four years ago I purchased a home off grid. It has a 48v system which then consisted of two strings of 8 T105s, each string wired in series, then connected to each other in parallel giving 450ah @ c20. The rest of the system consisted on 16 x 80W PV panels, a Xantrex 40A controller, and a Rich Electronics 3000W inverter. The battery bank was replaced after 8 years and 3 months usage. It could have gone on longer, but with winter approaching and the battery bank showing 50V after sundown each night instead of the previous 54V, played it safe and replaced the batteries. My average (conservatively assessed) power usage is 80 amps per day. Could have gone with another 450ah battery bank, but wanted to add a decent deep freeze, so wanted something over 500ah. To get that in FLA would have cost me over NZ $1200 per 6V battery, or $600 per 2V cell, so have gone with 8 x 12V AGM 290ah @ c20 in two strings of 4 in parallel giving 580ah. These batteries retail at NZ $670 each, so cost wise it was a no brainier for me, plus got them through a family connection, so 8 batteries, plus delivery, plus installation, plus a new MPPT 60A charge controller for a total of NZ $5900. If I get another eight years out of these, I am on a winner!
John

[mapmaker]

The simplicity of that statement just got burned permanently into my cerebral cortex. I might have to quote you on that later on...

Look at the paper I linked to here: http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...532#post110532

--mapmaker