Testing the voltage of a battery being charged

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  • PNjunction
    Solar Fanatic
    • Jul 2012
    • 2179

    #16
    Originally posted by spectralcanine
    I made a solar panel from 36 cells connected in series, each with specs of 0.5V and 3.6A.
    At optimal conditions it should give 18V, and in open circuit checks it seems to give between 20V when it's not hot, and gets as low as 14-15V when it warms up too much (any good ways to cool it?).
    Sounds about right for a DIY panel. Note that the loose-cells you get are NOT grade A, but factory rejects so they may have accellerated heating issues dropping you down to the 14v range. A panel that exhibits 20v when cool, and only gets to about 160F in the sun may not drop as much - maybe down to 17v OCV. But so far ok for DIY.

    I am charging a Lead Acid AGM 12V 5Ah battery with it.
    Cool. That means for these typical lead-calcium ups-type agm's, you don't exceed 14.7v charge, and have a typical maximum inrush current of about 0.25 to 0.3C. That means you should not be supplying it with anything larger than 1.25a to 1.5a. Sometimes that is printed on the case, but reputable manufacturers like PowerSonic, B&B etc have online docs and charts. Your diy panel is supplying about 2 times the recommended max for a 5ah agm.

    When it is disconnected for some time (hours?), it balances at voltages that make sense, like 13.x after a charge. However, when the panel is connected, the voltage spikes up to 15-16V.
    That means you don't have any sort of absorb voltage limiting - in the case of these agm's, in a cyclic application, no more than about 14.6 to 14.8v should ever be applied. If you do more, you are corroding the plates with high voltage, basically doing an EQ on them which most manufacturers say not to do. Look for venting, hissing, buckling plates. A little handheld IR temp gun can help you keep an eye on it.

    You'll also need current limiting, and perhaps the easiest is to just make sure your system is not capable of more than about 1.5a. Since that 5ah battery is now probably nicely toasted from your high-voltage, I'd upgrade to a 10ah agm, and program that arduino to never go above 14.7 volts.

    And on the opposite side, when I put some load on the battery, in the form of power leds that it's supposed to run on a daily basis, the voltage spikes down.
    Quite natural. If the leds draw no more than C/20 to C/10, (250 to 500ma total), then you are not heavily exceeding Peukert, and the voltages below will be in the ballpark even under load. Ideally, these voltages should be measured after a period of at least 4 hours of no charge and no load:

    12.8 + 100% SOC
    12.5 75% SOC
    12.2 50% SOC
    12.0 25% SOC

    Your battery manufacturer will have more specific voltages and may include handy discharge/current charts to help calibrate the actual SOC under a wider variety of loads. Note that most people avoid drawing any larger than 0.25C otherwise your battery will only last minutes instead of hours for example.

    How then do I check the real voltage for the charger, so I can know when to stop charging to avoid over charging, and whether I have to disconnect the power leds because the battery is too empty, to avoid over discharge?
    Let the battery do the regulating - all you have to do is provide a maximum absorb voltage and limit the maximum inrush current. It is the typical 2 or 3 stage charger.
    With your charger set to run at no more than 14.7 volts, the battery will eat up as much current as it can in the bulk stage. Your panel is capable of too much for these batteries, so either cut your panel output in half, or even easier, use a 10ah agm!

    Once the battery voltage reaches 14.7 volts, and with your arduino charger limited to not ever go higher than this, the *BATTERY* will naturally self regulate itself by absorbing what it can and current falls naturally as dictated by the battery. Kind of like you eating a desert after a heavy meal. You are already full, but perhaps you can absorb just a little more pumpkin pie.

    When to stop absorbing? If you have a way to measure current, then you can do either:
    Charge until you reach C/100, and then float at 13.5 volts ....or
    Charge until you reach C/1000. Float optional.

    Better yet, since all batteries age from natural causes, trying to reach a specific current may not ever get there due to electrolyte dry-out. In this case, program your system to detect no major changes in current for 3 hours, and then drop to float. If no current sensing is available, then perhaps you could just incorporate a timer, say limiting the absorb time from when the Arduino detects 14.7v to no more than 4 hours when a forced change to float 13.5 should occur. Having both timers and current sensing is ideal.

    This is basically what most 2 or 3 stage "smart" chargers do. From your description, it sounds like your Arduino is not capable of maintaining a voltage level, but only turning a circuit on and off at preset voltage levels. In this case, the only thing you can do is a 1970's style hysteresis "ping pong", where you turn the panel on when the battery voltage reaches 13.2v at the low setting, and turn off at the 14.7v setting. I don't advise it though for battery longevity.

    You could do the old school fake-pwm by putting your low and high voltages very close together, ie 14.2v for low and 14.7 high. Still, read the Morningstar archival docs on why they went to a true pwm duty cycle and not a tight-hysteresis model.

    At this level, if you really want to have some fun, and not worry too much about current limiting a 5ah agm, then look into Hawker Cyclon monoblocs. Pure-lead agm. Takes massive current input (within reason), but still DONT exceed 15 volts. They look like baby JCI/Optima's, but are really Enersys/Odyssey/Hawker family. Thing is, these babies like to see about 0.4C minimum under cyclic ops, so you'd want to supply a minimum of 2a charge from your solar/charge-controller system.

    Comment

    • spectralcanine
      Junior Member
      • Aug 2013
      • 5

      #17
      Thanks!

      I suddenly thought about looking at the datasheet yesterday, and saw that the battery should indeed get ~2.45V per cell (14.7V), so it seems the internet mislead me on this part.
      I ordered a DC-DC converter to regulate the voltage, but I am not sure how to limit the current.
      The datasheet says the battery should not get over 2A "initially", what does initially mean in this context?
      The DC-DC regulator also doesn't like anything above 2A.
      How does one go on about changing currents? my knowledge in electronics is pretty basic, and I can't seem to google any simple ways to limit the current up to 2A.
      If I have good sun and get the full 3.6A the cells are supposed to output, it would probably fry the regulator.

      On the consumption part, I have two sets of 3 1W power leds connected in series to two drivers that feed them ~300mA, so I don't think it's a very big issue for the battery.

      The Arduino can't work with voltages above 5V, so I can't control the voltage with it indeed. In fact to be able to even read the voltage I need a voltage divider of 1/3 or more.

      And I must say that no matter how much I read about C rates, I still have no idea what they are.

      Comment

      • Sunking
        Solar Fanatic
        • Feb 2010
        • 23301

        #18
        The maximum current is regulated by the solar panel. The panel power, voltage, and current is matched up to the battery.
        MSEE, PE

        Comment

        • SunEagle
          Super Moderator
          • Oct 2012
          • 15163

          #19
          Originally posted by Sunking
          Something is wrong here. For a Lipo 4.2 vpc (3S = 12.6). 4.1 or 12.3 for 3S is roughly 85 to 90% which is fine if you are comfortable with it.
          I went back and checked all of my charge records and the majority of them had the same 12.3v end results. There was one time that I charged one in the field on the "fast" charge setup and that one got my battery to 12.6v. I didn't pay attention to it before but I will research to see if the "slow" charge setup has limited the voltage for some reason. Maybe to extend the battery life.


          Well yes and no. A good Float Charger is strictly CV with a current limit. Float Chargers are excellent and a gentle charge, but not fast. Float Chargers are primarily used in Emergency Stand By power systems like Telephone Office DC Power Plants and UPS. They are also an excellent choice for storing batteries long term.

          2, 3, and 4 stage chargers are both CC and CV. CC mode is used for Bulk only to get you to 90% charged as fast as possible. Absorb, Float, and EQ are CV mode with current limit. For solar chargers most good ones have either 3 (Bulk, Absorb, and Float), and 4 stage adds EQ. With that said with solar set Bulk = Absorb to get fully charged ASAP.

          That makes sense. A more sophisticated charger should have more functionality. Thanks for the clarification.

          Comment

          • thastinger
            Solar Fanatic
            • Oct 2012
            • 804

            #20
            Originally posted by Sunking
            Something is wrong here. For a Lipo 4.2 vpc (3S = 12.6). 4.1 or 12.3 for 3S is roughly 85 to 90% which is fine if you are comfortable with it.


            I keep mine in a Zip Lock bag with a silica pack to keep moisture low. Don't freeze them, 35 to 40 is perfect for storage. Just be sure to warm them up a bit, then charge them and go fly.

            Well yes and no. A good Float Charger is strictly CV with a current limit. Float Chargers are excellent and a gentle charge, but not fast. Float Chargers are primarily used in Emergency Stand By power systems like Telephone Office DC Power Plants and UPS. They are also an excellent choice for storing batteries long term.

            2, 3, and 4 stage chargers are both CC and CV. CC mode is used for Bulk only to get you to 90% charged as fast as possible. Absorb, Float, and EQ are CV mode with current limit. For solar chargers most good ones have either 3 (Bulk, Absorb, and Float), and 4 stage adds EQ. With that said with solar set Bulk = Absorb to get fully charged ASAP.
            This has me thinking about my LiFePo4 battery pack on my drag bike. I have 2 of them 4S4P configuration, one I built and one I bought. The one I built does not have the balance circuit but the one I bought does and I have a fancy charger to go with it. I use the one I built as a backup and the one I bought stays in the bike. The bike is a total loss system so I charge the battery with a B&D charger set on 10A at the races and use the balance charger just a couple of times a year for equalizing the cells but they are never far enough out to be concerned. Have done this about 3 years now without issue but I need to check my balance charger because I remember having to dig down a few menu screens to find LiFe settings, it has the ability to build custom charge settings so maybe I need to do that and save it.
            1150W, Midnite Classic 200, Cotek PSW, 8 T-605s

            Comment

            • Sunking
              Solar Fanatic
              • Feb 2010
              • 23301

              #21
              Originally posted by thastinger
              This has me thinking about my LiFePo4 battery pack on my drag bike.
              Dude racing is another story. For racing you want the best batteries money can buy with the highest discharge C rate you can get. You would also want to cram every AH possible into the battery which will shorten battery life. Money is no object with racing, you buy the best money can buy. I would also assume the battery pack is replaced frequently as racing conditions would put a heavy toll on the batteries and capacity would degrade after 10 to 20 races.
              MSEE, PE

              Comment

              • Sunking
                Solar Fanatic
                • Feb 2010
                • 23301

                #22
                Originally posted by SunEagle
                I went back and checked all of my charge records and the majority of them had the same 12.3v end results. There was one time that I charged one in the field on the "fast" charge setup and that one got my battery to 12.6v. I didn't pay attention to it before but I will research to see if the "slow" charge setup has limited the voltage for some reason. Maybe to extend the battery life.
                Well I am new to RC chargers. I have the I-Charger 1010b and I can program all the set points to customize any battery. I assume yours can too from my research, but not certain. Its all about trade-offs, you cannot have your cake and eat it to. Want max performance, gotta sacrifice some some cycle life and mo money.

                FWIW I found a pretty good LiPo by a company called Hyperion. They make LiPo for military and medical. Above average and prices are not bad. Should yield up around 1000 cycles. Best place I have found to get them at is All E RC. Check it out. You can get 45C discharge and 5C charge without degration. I use the 25/5 C models for my Park Flyers.

                EDIT NOTE:

                Did I tell you I bought my second plane? PKZ Extra 300 BNF. Even got my hands on a AS3X receiver.
                MSEE, PE

                Comment

                • SunEagle
                  Super Moderator
                  • Oct 2012
                  • 15163

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Sunking
                  Well I am new to RC chargers. I have the I-Charger 1010b and I can program all the set points to customize any battery. I assume yours can too from my research, but not certain. Its all about trade-offs, you cannot have your cake and eat it to. Want max performance, gotta sacrifice some some cycle life and mo money.

                  FWIW I found a pretty good LiPo by a company called Hyperion. They make LiPo for military and medical. Above average and prices are not bad. Should yield up around 1000 cycles. Best place I have found to get them at is All E RC. Check it out. You can get 45C discharge and 5C charge without degration. I use the 25/5 C models for my Park Flyers.

                  EDIT NOTE:

                  Did I tell you I bought my second plane? PKZ Extra 300 BNF. Even got my hands on a AS3X receiver.
                  10-4 on the Extra 300. She looks fast. The spectrum AS3X is a nice 6 channel receiver. Did that come with the Extra 300?

                  I guess you found the batteries you were looking for at the site that sells Hyperion. Looks like the prices are pretty good for a US site.

                  Comment

                  • Sunking
                    Solar Fanatic
                    • Feb 2010
                    • 23301

                    #24
                    Originally posted by SunEagle
                    10-4 on the Extra 300. She looks fast. The spectrum AS3X is a nice 6 channel receiver. Did that come with the Extra 300?
                    No found it on Classifieds at RCG with the Programming USB Stick for $80. Have not installed it in the plane yet. Bought it because of wind in TX and can use the help. It is like the Apprentice SAFE RX with 3 axis stabilization with 2 modes of normal and 3D/Aerobatic modes. So far flew it with instructor on Buddy Box as it is a little above my skill level. Instructor can fly slow in semi-3D (knife edge, hanging on prop, tail down landing like a bird) Right now have to get use to the higher landing speeds. Have not set up the EXPO mode for aerobatics yet, just dual rates operating at Low for now. It is different, goes right where you point it like a bat out of he!! real fast.

                    No crashes yet.

                    Originally posted by SunEagle
                    I guess you found the batteries you were looking for at the site that sells Hyperion. Looks like the prices are pretty good for a US site.
                    Yeah prices are good and for the quality it is a good deal. Time will tell. Got two for the Apprentice and two for the EXTRA. Apprentice I get about 20 minutes hard flying, 30 minutes casual. Extra about 10 to 15 minutes.
                    MSEE, PE

                    Comment

                    • SunEagle
                      Super Moderator
                      • Oct 2012
                      • 15163

                      #25
                      Originally posted by Sunking
                      No found it on Classifieds at RCG with the Programming USB Stick for $80. Have not installed it in the plane yet. Bought it because of wind in TX and can use the help. It is like the Apprentice SAFE RX with 3 axis stabilization with 2 modes of normal and 3D/Aerobatic modes. So far flew it with instructor on Buddy Box as it is a little above my skill level. Instructor can fly slow in semi-3D (knife edge, hanging on prop, tail down landing like a bird) Right now have to get use to the higher landing speeds. Have not set up the EXPO mode for aerobatics yet, just dual rates operating at Low for now. It is different, goes right where you point it like a bat out of he!! real fast.

                      No crashes yet.

                      Yeah prices are good and for the quality it is a good deal. Time will tell. Got two for the Apprentice and two for the EXTRA. Apprentice I get about 20 minutes hard flying, 30 minutes casual. Extra about 10 to 15 minutes.
                      I would imagine less time with the Extra since you are standing on your tail.

                      There is a new Orange Rx that has 3D stabilization. Cost is well below name brand types like the AS3X.

                      I currently use a knockoff Spectrum orange Rx which has yet to give me problems and only cost about $12 each.

                      Comment

                      • Sunking
                        Solar Fanatic
                        • Feb 2010
                        • 23301

                        #26
                        Originally posted by SunEagle
                        I currently use a knockoff Spectrum orange Rx which has yet to give me problems and only cost about $12 each.
                        $12? WTF that is 1/10 or retail of a EFlite AS3X. Something strange going on. I mean heck you cannot even build a 3-axis gyro that goes inside the RX for that.
                        MSEE, PE

                        Comment

                        • thastinger
                          Solar Fanatic
                          • Oct 2012
                          • 804

                          #27
                          Originally posted by Sunking
                          Dude racing is another story. For racing you want the best batteries money can buy with the highest discharge C rate you can get. You would also want to cram every AH possible into the battery which will shorten battery life. Money is no object with racing, you buy the best money can buy. I would also assume the battery pack is replaced frequently as racing conditions would put a heavy toll on the batteries and capacity would degrade after 10 to 20 races.
                          Well, it is for drag racing so it only needs to go a couple of rounds and then I get some time in the pits to charge it back up. I did it for the weight savings of going from a 13.5Lb YB20 battery to a 4S4P A123 setup weighing in at 3 Lbs. It can start the motor 30 times before it needs to be recharged, the draw from the nitrous and fuel solenoids is the big power draw on it. It doesn't get alot of run time on it, probably 15 races a year or about 100 passes, it has held up much better than I expected, very impressed with the quality of these cells but its my understanding that A123 is going under.
                          1150W, Midnite Classic 200, Cotek PSW, 8 T-605s

                          Comment

                          • SunEagle
                            Super Moderator
                            • Oct 2012
                            • 15163

                            #28
                            Originally posted by Sunking
                            $12? WTF that is 1/10 or retail of a EFlite AS3X. Something strange going on. I mean heck you cannot even build a 3-axis gyro that goes inside the RX for that.
                            No the orange rx for $12 is just a basic 6 channel receiver. The one with the stabilization is around $35. There are others that range in between with different capabilities but most are either Spectrum or other transmitters compatible.

                            Just google orangerx 3-axis and you will find it.

                            Comment

                            • PNjunction
                              Solar Fanatic
                              • Jul 2012
                              • 2179

                              #29
                              Originally posted by spectralcanine
                              I ordered a DC-DC converter to regulate the voltage, but I am not sure how to limit the current..........The datasheet says the battery should not get over 2A "initially", what does initially mean in this context?
                              The simplest way to limit the current is to size the panel to your battery. When the panel gets attached to your discharged 5a battery, it will gobble up as much current as it can. Since you have a panel capable of 3.6A output, this is too much initially for the battery. You can either modify your panel, or even easier, use a larger battery, such as a 10A agm which can now handle your panel's maximum output.

                              The "C" rate is typically the amp-hour rating of a battery under a 20-hour load. That is, your 5ah battery should sustain 250 milliamp load for 20 hours until the battery is considered fully discharged. Note that fully-discharged does NOT equal zero volts. We're talking 10.75 - 11v for the most part. Going below that voltage is going "past" dead.

                              This tells you right there that with your 300 milliamp load you should be able to get into the ballpark of 5 / .3 = 16 hours until totally discharged. BUT you don't want to use up more than 50% of your battery capacity, so cut that figure in half to 8 hours. In other words, you essentially only have a 2.5ah capacity to cycle with if you want long life. Use your load for less time, and the cycle life improves. (less depth of discharge)

                              But you are exceeding the initial current rating with your existing panel. Again, the easiest mod here is to upgrade to a 10ah battery. Guess what? Now you CAN go 16 hours with your 300ma led lights and only reach a 50% DOD state for cyclic use.

                              Sounds like your Arduino is only measuring things, and not controlling them. You need some sort of control. Current control without hacking up your panel is as simple as upgrading to a larger battery that can handle the current. But now you need VOLTAGE control to not exceed 14.7 volts as measured at the battery terminals. In a solar application, leaving it at 14.7 for the rest of the day until the sun goes down or dropping to a float voltage is a decision you'll want to make depending on how you want to handle it.

                              With no voltage control, I suppose the best you can do is fire off a klaxon-alarm warning you to pull the clamps.

                              Comment

                              • Sunking
                                Solar Fanatic
                                • Feb 2010
                                • 23301

                                #30
                                Originally posted by thastinger
                                Well, it is for drag racing so it only needs to go a couple of rounds and then I get some time in the pits to charge it back up. I did it for the weight savings of going from a 13.5Lb YB20 battery to a 4S4P A123 setup weighing in at 3 Lbs.
                                My bad, I thought it was Electric Bike, not a gasser. You did good shaving 9 pounds.

                                Why not eliminate the battery all together using magneto and external battery to start engine? Fuel pump and ECM?

                                A123 is gone.
                                MSEE, PE

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