Aquion Energy up and coming battery....opinions please

[Sunking]

That link to the blog concerning the Redwood Gate Ranch off grid system was interesting but not necessarily relevant to anyone that may be thinking of a hybrid grid tie system.

Its a salesman. You really did not expect anything relevant did you?

Russ isn't there a policy about salesman here?

[russ]

Its a salesman. You really did not expect anything relevant did you?

Russ isn't there a policy about salesman here?

Yep - but I was hoping to get some attempt at real information published by Aquion - if they can't produce that then all they claim is BS. The battery specs seem to be top secret - as in, "just buy it - you will be happy".

If that is the best they can do then it is time to close them off.

[Sunking]

Yep - but I was hoping to get some attempt at real information published by Aquion - if they can't produce that then all they claim is BS. The battery specs seem to be top secret - as in, "just buy it - you will be happy".

If that is the best they can do then it is time to close them off.

Amy supplied specs. Go read my verdict here post #21. Not pretty limited to C/40.

[AquionEnergy]

Aquion Energy - A link in one post to real specs and the number of units sold to date would be good.

[edit]It seems that links may not be allowed in the forums, so here are the spec sheets as attachments instead.[/edit]
S20-008F Product Specification Sheet.pdf
M100-L082 Product Specification Sheet.pdf

We have about 1.4 MWh of batteries in the field, which translates into roughly 600 of our S-Line battery stacks. Beyond that, we have about the same number of units currently on order by customers as well.

That link to the blog concerning the Redwood Gate Ranch off grid system was interesting but not necessarily relevant to anyone that may be thinking of a hybrid grid tie system.

I do understand that we don't have a lot of information yet on hybrid grid tied systems. This is one of the pieces of content that we plan to work on, but we only have a small team of people that work on these pieces, so it can take us a bit of time to produce. I'd be happy to PM you to let you know when we do have something that might be more relevant to you.

I don't want to violate any of the policies that the forum has about salespeople, but if there are any other questions I can answer without violating these policies, I would be happy to do so as best I can.

- AM

[Living Large]

That link to the blog concerning the Redwood Gate Ranch off grid system was interesting but not necessarily relevant to anyone that may be thinking of a hybrid grid tie system.

My impression was that Aquion batteries might be best suited for off grid and microgrid, because I had read this page:

http://www.aquionenergy.com/microgrid-energy-storage

But I wouldn't know what attributes one would look for. Are you referring to AC-coupled?

[SunEagle]

My impression was that Aquion batteries might be best suited for off grid and microgrid, because I had read this page:

http://www.aquionenergy.com/microgrid-energy-storage

But I wouldn't know what attributes one would look for. Are you referring to AC-coupled?

There seems to be a large influx of people into this Forum looking for a way to utilize their grid tie solar panels when the grid goes down. That involves some type of hybrid inverter/charging equipment and batteries.

As of now the least expensive battery is an FLA type. If Aquion has discovered a less expensive way to store solar energy there may be a bigger market than just people that choose to go off grid.

Based on the preliminary data from Aquion their battery technology may or may not be a better solution to what is currently available. To meet the my "better" category I would like to see something that involves either much longer life, or higher energy density or much lower price then FLA systems. I'm still looking.

[Sunking]

My impression was that Aquion batteries might be best suited for off grid and microgrid, because I had read this page:
http://www.aquionenergy.com/microgrid-energy-storage

Makes for a good PR. But many problems and misleading claims. Example they claim High Efficiency. How is that possible with high internal resistance?

[northerner]

I see that the Aquion S20 is available retail at the Alt E store. It is listed at over $1100 USD for a 51ah 48 volt stack. Looks like battery efficiency varies significantly with rate of discharge. Could be a good choice in an application with relatively low discharge rates. Cycle life is listed at 6000 cycles at 50% DOD. I think one would need a significant number of stacks (and likely deep back pocket) to make it work for regular off grid usage.

[Sunking]

I see that the Aquion S20 is available retail at the Alt E store. It is listed at over $1100 USD for a 51ah 48 volt stack.

That works out to 45-cents per watt hours which is more than LiFeP04 \, and more than 100% for FLA batteries.

[northerner]

That works out to 45-cents per watt hours which is more than LiFeP04 \, and more than 100% for FLA batteries.

FLA, LFP, and Aquion's sodium ion batteries are all close to the same cost if you factor in cycle life.

Problem with lead acid batteries is having to stay on top of the charging, doing absorptions and EQ's, plus adding water occasionally. I am currently using lead acid batteries, and as they're aging, performance is decreasing as well.

I'm hoping for a better alternative when my current set of L16's die!

[Sunking]

FLA, LFP, and Aquion's sodium ion batteries are all close to the same cost if you factor in cycle life.

No not really.

It takes a 200 AH FLA to equal 100 AH of LFP. For example 24 volt 400 AH using Rolls S-530's will run you about $1400. 16 Calb 200 AH cells will run you about $2000. Using Aquion you cannot access the last 40% of the capacity and you pay a lot to Mr Peukert and to Equal 400 AH of FLA is going to require 560 AH at a cost of $6000. Not even remotely close to being competitive to either FLA or LFP. There is no way to make the economics work in any application. You are talking 300 to 400% higher prices. John Doe public may not figure it out but any pro can see it immediately once they look into the details. Cycle life is equal in all 3 applications. It just comes down to dollars.

[northerner]

No not really.

It takes a 200 AH FLA to equal 100 AH of LFP. For example 24 volt 400 AH using Rolls S-530's will run you about $1400. 16 Calb 200 AH cells will run you about $2000. Using Aquion you cannot access the last 40% of the capacity and you pay a lot to Mr Peukert and to Equal 400 AH of FLA is going to require 560 AH at a cost of $6000. Not even remotely close to being competitive to either FLA or LFP. There is no way to make the economics work in any application. You are talking 300 to 400% higher prices. John Doe public may not figure it out but any pro can see it immediately once they look into the details. Cycle life is equal in all 3 applications. It just comes down to dollars.

How do you figure that cycle life is equal in all 3 batteries? I compared all 3 types of batteries at an average DOD of 50%. The published cycle life for the L16's I'm using (Trojan) is 1700. For the Balqon it's 5000 cycles (at 50% DOD) and for the Aquion it's 6000 cycles. I think it's fair to compare with an average DOD at 50%, as that's all that's economically available for FLA's.

[Sunking]

How do you figure that cycle life is equal in all 3 batteries? I compared all 3 types of batteries at an average DOD of 50%.

That was your mistake. You would never design a FLA or LFD for 50% DOD daily discharge. For FLA only 20% daily, LFP 35 % daily.. Nor would you ever design any battery type to 50% daily.

LFP is the only type you can fully discharge and get 2000 to 3000 cycles, but you would never design a off grid system to take them that far down. Another point you have not considered is Peukert Effect is significant with Aquion batteries coupled with very high internal resistance robbin gyou of more than 50% of the capacity unless you discharge them very SLOWLY C/20 or less.

I don't like it any more than you do. I waited two years to get data on them. Now that the data and price are out and known, there are not many applications for them. At first they were billed to be used in EV's which quickly turned out to be a pile of poop because of the very poor density and high resistance. Density is not much of an issue with storage if space is not an issue. But resistance and Peukert is a huge issue couple with $/wh makes them useless for most applications. They will be a niche product for markets like emergency lightning in the mining industry, signal lights for rail road, telemetry and other low energy density applications where cost is not a factor.

If you want to spend that kind of money use LFP for 1/3 the cost and no headaches. It is not rocket science.

[northerner]

That was your mistake. You would never design a FLA or LFD for 50% DOD daily discharge. For FLA only 20% daily, LFP 35 % daily.. Nor would you ever design any battery type to 50% daily.

LFP is the only type you can fully discharge and get 2000 to 3000 cycles, but you would never design a off grid system to take them that far down. Another point you have not considered is Peukert Effect is significant with Aquion batteries coupled with very high internal resistance robbin gyou of more than 50% of the capacity unless you discharge them very SLOWLY C/20 or less.

I don't like it any more than you do. I waited two years to get data on them. Now that the data and price are out and known, there are not many applications for them. At first they were billed to be used in EV's which quickly turned out to be a pile of poop because of the very poor density and high resistance. Density is not much of an issue with storage if space is not an issue. But resistance and Peukert is a huge issue couple with $/wh makes them useless for most applications. They will be a niche product for markets like emergency lightning in the mining industry, signal lights for rail road, telemetry and other low energy density applications where cost is not a factor.

If you want to spend that kind of money use LFP for 1/3 the cost and no headaches. It is not rocket science.

I was only using 50% DOD for the purpose of comparing the battery types, and did not imply they are to be used to that extent every day.

I did another cost comparison between the same batteries (ie FLA, LFP and Sodium Ion).

L16 FLA came up with a cost of $809 per Kwh (for the 20% useable you suggested) and is rated at a cycle life of 4000 (at 20% DOD)

LFP came up with a cost of $1417 per Kwh (for the 35% useable you suggested) and is rated at a cycle life of close to 7000 (at 35% DOD)

Sodium Ion came up with a cost of $962 per Kwh (for the 50% useable) and is rated for a cycle life of 6000 (at 50% DOD)

So if you factor in the cycle life for each, the overall cost, as I had mentioned previously, is still very close for all 3 battery technologies. I agree that the Aquion sodium ion batteries have issues with paying Mr. Peukert, and thus will not be suitable for many applications.

[Living Large]

I was only using 50% DOD for the purpose of comparing the battery types, and did not imply they are to be used to that extent every day.

I did another cost comparison between the same batteries (ie FLA, LFP and Sodium Ion).

L16 FLA came up with a cost of $809 per Kwh (for the 20% useable you suggested) and is rated at a cycle life of 4000 (at 20% DOD)

LFP came up with a cost of $1417 per Kwh (for the 35% useable you suggested) and is rated at a cycle life of close to 7000 (at 35% DOD)

Sodium Ion came up with a cost of $962 per Kwh (for the 50% useable) and is rated for a cycle life of 6000 (at 50% DOD)

So if you factor in the cycle life for each, the overall cost, as I had mentioned previously, is still very close for all 3 battery technologies. I agree that the Aquion sodium ion batteries have issues with paying Mr. Peukert, and thus will not be suitable for many applications.

I am following your conversation with great interest, having just looked first at AHI, then AGM, and finally FLA as a newbie. I did not spend time on LFP, because an article I read made the case that LFP are not well suited for off-grid applications without an integrated battery monitoring system at the individual battery level - since if one battery in a series string goes to too high a voltage, it can be destroyed. Something like that.

One thing that caught my eye - I couldn't go to 50% DOD on AHI daily, because I couldn't recharge them daily with only 2 hours of insolation a day in the winter. The only option was to increase the capacity (and cost) by a factor of two or more. Way too much gen run time. In more sunny environments, this may not be an issue.

I don't want to divert the discussion. I had noticed that Sunking assumed a *daily* discharge to 50%, which I didn't think you were assuming. In any event, I am looking forward to more discussion of the comparative costs.