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  • #31
    Originally posted by Sunking View Post
    No reason to be. Get a pencil and paper out and work the numbers. Math does not lie. It is advocates, supporters, politicians, and people with agendas who lie.

    1. Determine your maximum daily Watt Hour Usage
    2. Determine worse case Solar Insolation of the year. In your case December January of roughly 3.5 Sun Hours in December/January
    3. Calculate Equipment needed.
    4. Price it out including material and hardware.
    5. Considering you are in the Bahamas battery quality and selection will be limited. Most likely locally the best you can get is 2 or 3 year batteries.
    6. Assuming the batteries will need replaced every 3 years determine replacement cost for up to 9 years assuming 5% higher cost each replacement cycle. Add in the equipment cost and calculate how much per Kwh will cost you over 10 years.

    That should give you a very clear picture of what is really happening. My guess is you will not like what you see as the truth can be very ugly sometimes.

    Good luck.
    Thanks agAin though. You are keeping things in perspective.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Sunking View Post
      No reason to be. Get a pencil and paper out and work the numbers. Math does not lie. It is advocates, supporters, politicians, and people with agendas who lie.

      1. Determine your maximum daily Watt Hour Usage
      2. Determine worse case Solar Insolation of the year. In your case December January of roughly 3.5 Sun Hours in December/January
      3. Calculate Equipment needed.
      4. Price it out including material and hardware.
      5. Considering you are in the Bahamas battery quality and selection will be limited. Most likely locally the best you can get is 2 or 3 year batteries.
      6. Assuming the batteries will need replaced every 3 years determine replacement cost for up to 9 years assuming 5% higher cost each replacement cycle. Add in the equipment cost and calculate how much per Kwh will cost you over 10 years.

      That should give you a very clear picture of what is really happening. My guess is you will not like what you see as the truth can be very ugly sometimes.


      Good luck.
      Would it be interesting for discussion to post my costs
      ?

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by bahamasolarnoob View Post
        Would it be interesting for discussion to post my costs
        ?
        Sure also include local electricity cost. I can run the numbers is 15 seconds.
        MSEE, PE

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Sunking View Post
          No reason to be. Get a pencil and paper out and work the numbers. Math does not lie. It is advocates, supporters, politicians, and people with agendas who lie.

          1. Determine your maximum daily Watt Hour Usage
          2. Determine worse case Solar Insolation of the year. In your case December January of roughly 3.5 Sun Hours in December/January
          3. Calculate Equipment needed.
          4. Price it out including material and hardware.
          5. Considering you are in the Bahamas battery quality and selection will be limited. Most likely locally the best you can get is 2 or 3 year batteries.
          6. Assuming the batteries will need replaced every 3 years determine replacement cost for up to 9 years assuming 5% higher cost each replacement cycle. Add in the equipment cost and calculate how much per Kwh will cost you over 10 years.

          That should give you a very clear picture of what is really happening. My guess is you will not like what you see as the truth can be very ugly sometimes.

          Good luck.
          Ok excuses for the delay, I was working on a project the last days.

          I always had the set up as mentioned in #3 or #4 in mind http://www.backwoodssolar.com/reference/examples.htm
          The solar watts recommended are calculated for the northern US, and are about 60% higher than needed in the desert Southwest or the Caribbean. In really sunny climates, you can use the equipment list and cost from one example, and expect to receive benefits more like the next larger example.

          1. Here is what I came up with:

          3 x 52" ceiling fans 8 hrs/day
          3xcomputer 4 hrs/day
          3x15w fluorescent bulbs 8 hrs/day (security lights at night)
          1x 4 cu. ft. fridge 1.6Amp .. all day?
          1xrouter/wifi
          1x19" tv (not flat screen) 3 hrs/day
          4x15w fluorescent bulbs 5 hrs/day (dining room, bedroom, living room, kitchen but not all on at same time)

          2. 3.5

          3.
          -for now 2x285 w/24v solar panels $222.30 each http://www.sunelec.com/Specs/JA285.pdf
          -Morningstar MPPT 60a cc w/o led screen $506.40
          -samlex 2000 w/24v inverter $619.99 (??) or in case I stay 12v: a Sunforce 11260 2500 Watt Pure Sine Wave Inverter/12 v $311.93
          -4x6v batteries carquest local price $205 or in case I stay 12 v: 2x6v batteries carquest local price $205

          4. all cabling, breakers, fuses, etc will be free. (my bro in law owns electrical supply store and he owes me)

          5. carquest 6v batteries as discussed earlier in this thread. Trojans are $300 each here
          6. You can start shooting at the noob now.

          7. On a side note, regardless of the costs, can I run that 4 cu. ft. fridge 1.6Amp with this set up.

          Comment


          • #35
            1. Here is what I came up with:

            3 x 52" ceiling fans 8 hrs/day [COLOR=#ff0000](How many watts does each fan use? Need watt hours watts x hours all you gave is hours and units. Need 3 x 8 hours x watts)[/COLOR]
            3xcomputer 4 hrs/day [COLOR=#ff0000]Same as above[/COLOR]
            3x15w fluorescent bulbs 8 hrs/day (security lights at night) [COLOR=#ff0000](OK 3 x 15 watts x 8 hours = [B]360 watt hours[/B])[/COLOR]
            1x 4 cu. ft. fridge 1.6Amp .. all day? [COLOR=#ff0000]Jibberish.[/COLOR] [COLOR=#ff0000]What voltage? How many hours. Need Watt Hours in a day[/COLOR]
            1xrouter/wifi [COLOR=#ff0000]More Jiobberish, need watt hours
            [/COLOR]1x19" tv (not flat screen) 3 hrs/day [COLOR=#ff0000]How many watts? Need watt hours[/COLOR]
            4x15w fluorescent bulbs 5 hrs/day (dining room, bedroom, living room, kitchen but not all on at same time) [COLOR=#ff0000]How many hours? Need watt hours
            [/COLOR]
            [COLOR=#ff0000]Sounds like a Broken Record. Need data to answer. All I know is you have given me is [B]360 Watt hours a day[/B] to power 3 x 15 watts lights for 8 hours. Just that alone will take a 150 watt panel ($200 to $300), 10 amp MPPT controller ($100 or more), and a 12 volt 150 AH battery ($150) Total right now for 3 lights is $350 to $450. Do you want more? That is cheap. To get more gets real expensive becaus all you have given thus far is 3 small potatoes. [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000]Can't make soup with just 3 small potatoes.[/COLOR]
            MSEE, PE

            Comment


            • #36
              Ok ok.. I am coming back tomorrow
              Originally posted by Sunking View Post
              1. Here is what I came up with:
              ..
              3 x 52" ceiling fans 8 hrs/day [COLOR=#ff0000](How many watts does each fan use? Need watt hours watts x hours all you gave is hours and units. Need 3 x 8 hours x watts)[/COLOR]
              3xcomputer 4 hrs/day [COLOR=#ff0000]Same as above[/COLOR]
              3x15w fluorescent bulbs 8 hrs/day (security lights at night) [COLOR=#ff0000](OK = [B]360



              watt hours[/B])[/COLOR]
              1x 4 cu. ft. fridge 1.6Amp .. all day? [COLOR=#ff0000]Jibberish.[/COLOR] [COLOR=#ff0000]What voltage? How many hours. Need Watt Hours in a day[/COLOR]
              1xrouter/wifi [COLOR=#ff0000]More Jiobberish, need watt hours
              [/COLOR]1x19" tv (not flat screen) 3 hrs/day [COLOR=#ff0000]How many watts? Need watt hours[/COLOR]
              4x15w fluorescent bulbs 5 hrs/day (dining room, bedroom, living room, kitchen but not all on at same time) [COLOR=#ff0000]How many hours? Need watt hours
              [/COLOR]
              [COLOR=#ff0000]Sounds like a Broken Record. Need data to answer. All I know is you have given me is [B]360 Watt hours a day[/B] to power 3 x 15 watts lights for 8 hours. Just that alone will take a 150 watt panel ($200 to $300), 10 amp MPPT controller ($100 or more), and a 12 volt 150 AH battery ($150) Total right now for 3 lights is $350 to $450. Do you want more? That is cheap. To get more gets real expensive becaus all you have given thus far is 3 small potatoes. [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000]Can't make soup with just 3 small potatoes.[/COLOR]

              Comment


              • #37
                Pump

                What about the pool pump? its probably responsible for most of your big electric bill.
                How much, and what will be done about it? Bruce Roe

                Comment


                • #38
                  Ok hope this is better, lets try this again:

                  3 x15 W sec. lights: 15wx8 hrs = 120 Wh
                  3 x15 W bulbs: 15Wx5 hrs =75 Wh
                  ceiling fan 1: 100w x 8 hrs = 800Wh
                  ceiling fan 2: 0.9A x 120V=108W X 8 hrs = 864Wh
                  ceiling fan 3: 1.1A x 120v=132W x 8 hrs = 1056 Wh
                  3 computers: 100w x 4 hrs = 400 Wh
                  3 monitors: 150w x 4 hrs= 600 Wh
                  tv: 75W x 4 hrs = 300 Wh
                  washer: 500W x .5 hrs = 250 Wh (dont know if this is correct? Its on every day for 1 load)
                  1.5 Amp fridge
                  (4 cu ft): 1.5x120v=180W x 24/3 h = 1.440 Wh ( I read that I should divide the daily fridge hours by 3, you can adjust this if this is wrong)
                  dlink router: 6W x 24 hrs = 144Wh
                  cable box receiver: 20W x 4 hrs = 80 Wh

                  I also have a 7.1 amp fridge, I think its better to sell this one, but anyway just for discussion:
                  7.1 x 120 = 852 W x 8 hrs = 6,816 Wh

                  Shocking to me was, when I checked on the bottom of all my appliances, how much some of these things use all day, like the dlink router and the cable box... or my kids that leave their computer on. I am turning everything off.

                  Sunking I am still getting you the cost of electricity here. It's taking long because I have to find a recent bill. We dont have mail at the house here, I have to go to the post office and get my mail, just been too busy to actually go there. Usually it fluctuates around $500 for 800-900 Kwatt-hours per month.

                  My plan is to have 2x285W/24v panels set up this year.
                  Next year another 2 for total of 4x285W. I was thinking of cutting costs for now and run it on 2x6v batteries and a 12 v system (with a MPPT cc) until next year.
                  Then next year change the setting on the MPPT cc to 24 volt and get more batteries. (and another 24v inverter?)
                  Dont know if that makes any sense. You will probably rip this to pieces. Let me know if this is a ****ty idea. I can take it.

                  I would be happy if I can run the little fridge, maybe wash this year, have a few lights and one computer. This would be my emergency set up for now and earn me some bonus points with my beautiful wife.

                  Originally posted by bcroe View Post
                  What about the pool pump? its probably responsible for most of your big electric bill.
                  How much, and what will be done about it? Bruce Roe
                  Yes I think it is. I left this out of the system.

                  Whats also killing us here is the fuel surcharge that is sometimes 3x the cost of your actual usage, and the fuel charge (the POCO runs diesel generators) "fluctuates" monthly (based on world oil prices they say....) so you never know what you're gonna get. We have no consumer protection here, the POCO is Canadian.
                  The POCO seems to ease up on cracking down on people/businesses using grid tied solar or generators. Years back they were known for cutting peoples wiring from the solar panels to the house. Thats why I dont want nothing grid tied.

                  I would like to stay away from generators because 1. they are expensive to import or buy locally 2. fuel is $5.25-5.50 a gallon

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Another question, would it make sense for my solar system to buy a small freezer like this that uses 212 kWh/year in addition to the small fridge, instead of the big fridge and instead of getting more panels to power the big fridge.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by bahamasolarnoob View Post
                      Another question, would it make sense for my solar system to buy a small freezer like this that uses 212 kWh/year in addition to the small fridge, instead of the big fridge and instead of getting more panels to power the big fridge.
                      Spend the $$ up front and get a $800 full size Energy Star fridge/freezer that in total, consumes 370KWh yearly. They have good insulation and modern motors. It's easier (more effective) to insulate 1 box instead of 2 of them.
                      Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                      || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                      || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                      solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                      gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
                        Spend the $$ up front and get a $800 full size Energy Star fridge/freezer that in total, consumes 370KWh yearly. They have good insulation and modern motors. It's easier (more effective) to insulate 1 box instead of 2 of them.
                        Yeah that was my other thought. What about the famous converted chest freezer fridge + a small 214 KWh yearly freezer?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by bahamasolarnoob View Post
                          3 x15 W sec. lights: 15wx8 hrs = [B]120 Wh[/B]
                          3 x15 W bulbs: 15Wx5 hrs =[B]75 Wh[/B]
                          ceiling fan 1: 100w x 8 hrs = [B]800Wh[/B]
                          ceiling fan 2: 0.9A x 120V=108W X 8 hrs = [B]864Wh[/B]
                          ceiling fan 3: 1.1A x 120v=132W x 8 hrs = [B]1056 Wh[/B]
                          3 computers: 100w x 4 hrs = [B]400 Wh[/B]
                          3 monitors: 150w x 4 hrs= [B]600 Wh[/B]
                          tv: 75W x 4 hrs = [B]300 Wh[/B]
                          washer: 500W x .5 hrs = [B]250 Wh [/B]
                          1.5 Amp fridge (4 cu ft): 1.5x120v=180W x 24/3 h = [B]1.440 Wh [/B]
                          cable box receiver: 20W x 4 hrs = [B]80 Wh [/B]
                          I also have a 7.1 amp fridge,7.1 x 120 = 852 W x 8 hrs = [B]6,816 Wh

                          [/B]Sunking I am still getting you the cost of electricity here. It's taking long because I have to find a recent bill. We dont have mail at the house here, I have to go to the post office and get my mail, just been too busy to actually go there. Usually it fluctuates around [B]$500 for 800-900 Kwatt-hours per month[/B].
                          Total Daily Kwh usage = [B]12.7 Kwh/day[/B] or 388 Kwh/month

                          OK this is what you need to know as it will clearly show you what is really going on. Granted by US averages your usage is very small compared to the average US residence uses some 30 Kwh/day 900 Kwh/month. However taking 12 to 13 Kwh/day off grid is a huge expensive undertaking and I will be honest with you it is going to hurt deeply in the pockets.

                          So just based on what data you have provided so far it is going to take
                          [LIST][*]Panel Wattage = (12700 Kwh x 1.5) / 3.8 Hours = 5013 watts. Can round that down to [B]5000 Watts[/B] [*]48 Volt Battery AH Capacity = (12700 wh x 5 day reserve) / 48 volts = 1322 AH, round down to [B]1300 AH[/B] FWIW that is a 1368 Kg / 3024 pound battery. It takes 24 of these batteries to get the job done. [*]MPPT Charge Controller = [B]80 amps[/B]. There is only 1 80 amp controller on the market that can handle 5000 watt input, a Midnight Solar Classic 150. [/LIST]

                          I think once you check total delivered price on just these 3 components you will understand why I am so cautious. For example here in the USA the batteries cost roughly $10,500 plus shipping. Ignoring any import tax and shipping cost to Bahamas based on 5 year replacement cycle each Kwh will cost you $10,500 / 23177 Kwh = $0.453 Kwh. I can only imagine your total delivered cost will be at least twice that much meaning just in battery cost you will be paying $1.00 Kwh. In 4 or 5 years you get to cough up even more due to inflation. Based on what numbers you provided you are now paying the POCO $500 / 900 Kwh = $0.55 / Kwh. So right now going off-grid is going to double your expense. You need to think about that real hard.

                          [B]Y[COLOR=#ff0000]ou raise a RED Flag here too.[/COLOR][/B] From the data you provided totaled about 13 Kwh/day or 390 Kwh/month. 900 Kwh/month is 30 Kwh/day. Something is not right. 13 Kwh does not = 30 Kwh

                          Originally posted by bahamasolarnoob View Post
                          My plan is to have 2x285W/24v panels set up this year.
                          Next year another 2 for total of 4x285W. I was thinking of cutting costs for now and run it on 2x6v batteries and a 12 v system (with a MPPT cc) until next year.
                          Then next year change the setting on the MPPT cc to 24 volt and get more batteries. (and another 24v inverter?)
                          Dont know if that makes any sense. You will probably rip this to pieces. Let me know if this is a ****ty idea. I can take it.
                          Do not take this wrong, I mean no harm, but your plan will fail and wipe out your funds. With each upgrade will require full replacement of batteries. Your first 3 years is not even a good down payment. You need a 5000 watt system 48 volt system, not a 500 or 1500 watt 24 volt system. You would just be throwing money away. FWIW use 200 to 215 watt Grid Tied panels

                          Originally posted by bahamasolarnoob View Post
                          Whats also killing us here is the fuel surcharge that is sometimes 3x the cost of your actual usage, and the fuel charge (the POCO runs diesel generators) "fluctuates" monthly (based on world oil prices they say....) so you never know what you're gonna get. We have no consumer protection here, the POCO is Canadian.
                          The POCO seems to ease up on cracking down on people/businesses using grid tied solar or generators. Years back they were known for cutting peoples wiring from the solar panels to the house. Thats why I dont want nothing grid tied.

                          [U][COLOR=#ff0000]I would like to stay away from generators because 1. they are expensive to import or buy locally 2. fuel is $5.25-5.50 a gallon [/COLOR][/U]
                          Sorry but a generator is a must have item for a off-grid system. It is required to properly maintain the batteries with a monthly EQ charge and get you through rainy season. Otherwise you will destroy those $10,000 batteries. You are looking a 10 KVA [U]diesel or LPG[/U] generator (gasoline is not acceptable) with a 150 amp 48 volt battery charger.

                          I know you think I am being hard on you, and I am. But I have a damn good reason to be hard on you. I am trying to get you to understand what you are asking for. In the end you might thank me for it.
                          MSEE, PE

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Wow.. ok. I need to rethink this whole thing and down size my plans. My solar budget was around $2000 for now.
                            Can I squeeze out just an emergency system with a small fridge and 1 computer?

                            About the red flag: Yeah you see now that there must be something wrong with my power consumption? I have a small ranch/bungalow style 70's house 3 bed rooms/2 bath.
                            I went room to room last night with my list. I have no central a/c.
                            The poolpump cant possibly be responsible for the remaining monthly Kwh?

                            Dont worry about being too hard, I have read your posts all over this forum. I know where it's coming from. I really appreciate this advice. I have printed it out and going to re read it tonight.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by bahamasolarnoob View Post
                              Wow.. ok. I need to rethink this whole thing and down size my plans. My solar budget was around $2000 for now.
                              Can I squeeze out just an emergency system with a small fridge and 1 computer?

                              About the red flag: Yeah you see now that there must be something wrong with my power consumption? I have a small ranch/bungalow style 70's house 3 bed rooms/2 bath.
                              I went room to room last night with my list. I have no central a/c.
                              The poolpump cant possibly be responsible for the remaining monthly Kwh?

                              Dont worry about being to hard, I have read your posts all over this forum. I know where it's coming from. I really appreciate this advice. I have printed it out and going to re read it tonight.
                              Too bad we could not hook up a week ago. I was in Nassau all last week.
                              MSEE, PE

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Pool Pump

                                Originally posted by bahamasolarnoob View Post
                                The pool pump can't possibly be responsible for the remaining monthly Kwh?
                                The pool pump is probably your biggest load, but you have no numbers for it. Any
                                solution must include it. Bruce Roe

                                Comment

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