Inverter and Battery capacity for washing machine

[J.P.M.]

Well said JPM.

Thank you.

Well, one way to look at the worth of this forum is as a place for opinions, and opinions vary, but I appreciate the comment.

[PNW_Steve]

If you respect the forum and the free advice, then I'd suggest before you write something you also have some appreciation for fellow posters and mods who read what you write, and consider the effects your postings may have on their actions.

The way I learned it, one mark of the professional is that they confine their advice to the areas in which they claim proficiency, and refrain from giving advice in areas where they lack proficiency. They are also careful to separate what they think they know from opinion and conjecture.

They also have the professionalism and courtesy to not expect others to pick up after them as you seem to be expecting others here to do.

Everyone makes mistakes but spouting off without knowledge is a mistake that should be stopped before it's spoken/written, and not corrected by others after the fact.

IMO only, regular posters and mods here are not nurse maids. Self regulate and constrain yourself.

If you're not pretty sure, or don't know what you're talking (writing) about, have the courtesy to not lead others astray with potentially incorrect - and more importantly - perhaps dangerous, or costly, or time wasting information. Ask a question rather than take a chance at pronouncing fallacy, and/or at least provide some backup reasoning for what you present. Doing it that way also saves others time not spent cleaning up/correcting/calling out potentially dangerous and/or costly messes.

Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

Well said JPM.

Thank you.

[Ho jo]

I've came to the conclusion it's a lot cheaper to run my 2000 generator for washing clothes. My calculator says 1500 2000 surge inverter @24 volts battery bank around 450 amp hrs @24 volts. For 1 hour once a week cost less than 1 dollar in fuel. It would cost much more just replacing batteries every 2-4 years

[sevensixtwo]

I have a 10 amp, 110 volt washing machine. If I use (amps x volts) = watts, I see I will need 1.1kW. Assuming one or more 12V batteries, what is a panel/battery arrangement that will run this washing machine? I've seen it written that one should not use an inverter above 1kW with a 12V battery, but also I can wire multiple 12V batteries for 24V. I would run the washer once a week, and I would have a misc 100W load about 10 hours a day. Thanks!

[Mike90250]

Lets K.I.S.S. Watts divided by Volts = Amps & Amps X Volts = Watts Ying&Yang

And this applies to power factor how ? You can't throw up alphabet soup and obfuscate the problem.
An inverter or generator HAS to be able to handle the increased load caused by poor PF. This is where the VA calculations for AC come into play, and not the simpler DC watts. This is how a "30W" CFL needs 94 watts from the inverter or generator - because the power factor throws the V and I out of phase and the inverter or generator has to supply the difference via extra capacity. The load the batteries see is the original nameplate load (30W)

There is a great ( but long ) writeup about VA and PF vs Watts in this link

http://www.screenlightandgrip.com/html/emailnewsletter_generators.html#anchorgenerator%20basics

It was written for the movie industry techs, because the new low power lighting gear, is not the simple 1kw klieg light anymore, it's a 90W LED with poor PF and you can't hook 11 of them to a generator, because it simply is not a 1kw load.
Lots of sketches and diagrams in the article

[Sunking]

Lets K.I.S.S. Watts divided by Volts = Amps & Amps X Volts = Watts Ying&Yang

Poor advice again and has nothing to do with AC Power. 23000 answers and counting. The mods come to me for advice. Check the Stickies. I wrote most of them.

[J.P.M.]

I respect that this forum provides free consultation from professionals and don't wish to abuse it.
If the information I am giving is bad, I will edit the posts and remove any potentially dangerous information at yours or any qualified person's request.

If you respect the forum and the free advice, then I'd suggest before you write something you also have some appreciation for fellow posters and mods who read what you write, and consider the effects your postings may have on their actions.

The way I learned it, one mark of the professional is that they confine their advice to the areas in which they claim proficiency, and refrain from giving advice in areas where they lack proficiency. They are also careful to separate what they think they know from opinion and conjecture.

They also have the professionalism and courtesy to not expect others to pick up after them as you seem to be expecting others here to do.

Everyone makes mistakes but spouting off without knowledge is a mistake that should be stopped before it's spoken/written, and not corrected by others after the fact.

IMO only, regular posters and mods here are not nurse maids. Self regulate and constrain yourself.

If you're not pretty sure, or don't know what you're talking (writing) about, have the courtesy to not lead others astray with potentially incorrect - and more importantly - perhaps dangerous, or costly, or time wasting information. Ask a question rather than take a chance at pronouncing fallacy, and/or at least provide some backup reasoning for what you present. Doing it that way also saves others time not spent cleaning up/correcting/calling out potentially dangerous and/or costly messes.

Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

[Paul Land]

I've tried to make clear to Ho jo or anyone else reading the posts when my answers are uncertain and would need double checking.
Examples I said, "I might need correcting"... "thought experiments" ..."ask those you know".
When I can give some direction, I've tried to redirect Ho jo or anyone else interested to information with links with people who do know.
I respect that this forum provides free professional consultation and don't wish to abuse it.
If the information I am giving is bad, I will edit the posts and remove any potentially dangerous information at yours or any qualified person's request.

Dont worry there to many so-called experts here! You will see a pattern just ignore non-op replys. The moderators have sound advice.

[Greta Gremlin]

Sorry to butt in but you need a lot of help. You have come to the wrong conclusions and made poor decisions. Basically you know enough to be dangerous, but not near enough to apply it to anything.
...
So by your misplaced logic is leading you to poor decisions. You only know enough to be dangerous. Additionally being compounded by trying to answer questions you should not be answering. You are doing more harm than good.

I've tried to make clear to Ho jo or anyone else reading the posts when my answers are uncertain and would need double checking.
Examples I said, "I might need correcting"... "thought experiments" ..."ask those who know".
When I can give some direction, I've tried to redirect Ho jo or anyone else interested to information with links with people who do know.

The thread I originally linked about PF reads as if the voltamps translates into actual power used. So the example I gave was based on that.
https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/forum...-in-the-system

Now to calculate the load on the batteries we need to know the inverter efficiency. Lets say at this power level it is 90%. so the load on the batteries will be 50.4 / .6 / .9 = 94 watts. So when you were thinking all I had was 30 watts of CFL, you actually have a 94 watt load. The system uses 3 times more power than you thought. Surprise.

I respect that this forum provides free consultation from professionals and don't wish to abuse it.
If the information I am giving is bad, I will edit the posts and remove any potentially dangerous information at yours or any qualified person's request.

[Greta Gremlin]

Greta my 1700 generator runs 8 hrs on 2 gals 50% load fuel now here 1.88 per gal. 1 hr for 2 wash loads 440w/hrs Microwave 700 watt 10 mins daily 117 w/hrs . 2 slice toaster 840 watts 4 slices 8 mins 112 w/hrs? E blanket 400 w/hrs nightly. DC rv loads pump leds propane fridge 300 w/hrs daily. TV and dvd 45 watts 4 hrs 180 w/hrs. 1110w/hrs (Please check my math) Batterys are us battery 1800 $85 each $15 core so actually $400. My travel trailer is on a permanent spot. So an isolator wouldn't work. 1110 w/hrs x1.5 1665 x 3 days 4995 @24 volts 208 amp hrs @ 12 volts 416. Amp hrs. Array size 1665 divided by 3.9 sun hrs 426 watts.Charge rate for 208* .10 21 amps times 24 500 watt array. Planned on 550 watts on 30 amp controller.

If it were me, I wouldn't use any appliance that converts electricity to heat.
That can all be done by propane, all the way down to -20F degrees is when you might have trouble getting liquid to gas.
I paid $12 to have an empty 15 lb tank filled, and have used it generously for cooking and boiling water for well over a year now.
My cooking needs have been met for $12 or less a year. That is $1 or less a month.
That price is hard to pass up, taking into account that with propane I also have access to that heat 24/7/365.

Good cookware can do all the things a microwave and/or toaster can do.
For toasting you could look at a pie iron or a sandwich toaster.

I would be wary of electric blankets, when younger I used to get headaches around them.
According to this, EMF is higher than standing under high transmission power lines.
https://www.who.int/peh-emf/project/...ooklet2008.pdf


A good sleeping bag with a hot water bottle inside is indispenable for off-grid. And you will always have access to it,
An E blanket for your solar setup would have limited access in cold weather due to your battery capacity and even less if in a cloudy streak of weather.
A big problem since you will very much need that E blanket then.
A hot water bottle has kept me comfortably warm through winter stays, sometimes in the single digits.
Inside a good sleeping bag, hot water bottles will give off heat for several hours.
Water has one of the highest thermal capacities of substances you will find in nature.
And it works for both heating and cooling, get it to boiling or ice (phase change) and you have stored even more energy.
This along with some down blankets/comforters will keep you especially warm.

Another good investment would be a laptop computer in the place of a TV & DVD.
Laptops have battery power meaning you can charge them up during the day on solar and use them at night.
They will offer the capabilities of TV and DVD amongst numerous other applications.
There are TV tuners available for laptops and you can utilize your DVDs in a laptop computer.
If the laptop is charged, efficient ones may use anywhere from 3 watts to 20 watts under load.
You can also take the battery out and get the same results.
Even more useful, you can use them on a 12v battery with a cigarette lighter adapter, meaning no inverter needed and no power losses.

You estimated about 1600w/hrs daily,
If you do 24v 208ah then you have about 5000 w/hrs power
But don't go below 50% charged so that would be 2500 w/hrs usable
If you get one cloudy day you are going to be at 68% charged if daily needs are 1600 w/hrs.
Another one will put you at 36%.
How will you charge batteries if you've got a bad streak of weather?
What if this same scenario happens but in winter when temps put batteries at 70% capacity.
You will either need a bigger system or lower your daily needs.

My suggestion is to find a way to lower your daily needs.
Do all your heating/cooking with propane.
When it gets cold, boil up some water up via propane.
Then put that in a hot water bottle inside your sleeping bag/coat/blanket cocoon.
Hours of warmth with zero w/hrs required.
No microwave, toaster, or E blanket needed if you use propane this way.

That only leaves 480w/hrs daily.
You could check into 12v TVs and DVD players and can run them off 12v battery, you won't need a 12v inverter.
If you get a good laptop and can run that off 12v battery, you won't need a 12v inverter.
To do this put compatible cigarette lighter adapter for laptop into 12v outlet.
Your daily needs would be at 340-380 w/hrs in that case, possibly less.
If you use propane for heating/cooking, and go for 12v electronics.
400 w/hrs X 5 X 2 = 4,000 w/hrs then 4000/24v = 167 ah at 24v or 334 ah at 12v.
That's significantly lower.

The only thing left is the washing machine, which you run for an hour on the generator.
From what you've said, the price to run your laundry comes out at about 0.50 cents an hour.
If you do this once a week, 52 weeks * 0.50 = that's $26 dollars a year.
If you do what I do for the rest of your appliances on heating, you are looking at $12 a year propane for cooking.
Let's add another $12 of propane dedicated to boiling water during winter to keep warm.
$26+$12+$12 = $50 a year.

Depending on the amp hours of your current 12v setup, you might need not to do anything other than get a 12v TV/DVD or laptop with compatible adapter.
The 12v electronics could range anywhere from $10-1000 depending on what you want.
Here's a list of lower power computers.
http://www.tpcdb.com/list.php?page=1...ue_avg&type=13
You could try a raspberry pi, there is a strong following to unlocking the capabilites of this less than 3 watt computer.
Lots of tutorials and instructions and community support, still would need a TV/display though so more w/hrs.
A new or used laptop would have more capabilites, a display, as well as battery power, plus no need to learn coding/programming.

If the current system is 208ah at 12v you would have 3 days backup power at 400 w/hrs daily before you hit 50% discharge.
So after a purchase of 12v electronics equipment and $50 a year expenses for additional fuel you would be saving yourself a lot of money as opposed to a new system.

[Sunking]

lets k.i.s.s. Watts divided by volts = amps & amps x volts = watts ying&yang

kma

[Paul Land]

Sorry to butt in but you need a lot of help. You have come to the wrong conclusions and made poor decisions. Basically you know enough to be dangerous, but not near enough to apply it to anything.

PF is only a problem for Inverters and generators limiting how large a load they can handle. What you do not understand is the difference between True or Real Power, and Apparent Power.

PF = Real Power / Apparent Power

Example say 600 watts / 1000 Watts = PF 0.6.

For the moment assume the Inverter is 100% efficiency and operating at 12 volts. So here is where you are going wrong. How much power is actually being taken from the battery? I bet you would say 1000 watts right?

Wrong, dead wrong. It is only supplying 600 watts and at 12 volts is 50 amps. So how does PF come into play. Well if the Inverter above were say 1000 watts supplying 600 watts into a load with a PF = 0.6 means the Inverter is at maximum capacity and cannot supply any more Real Power because Apparent power is at the maximum limit of 1000 Volt Amps. Real Power is the heat energy or real work being done. Think of Volt-Amps like a politician or News Media with a PF = 0.5. Half of what is being said is pure fiction with a biased agenda.

That is only half the story of where you are screwing yourself. Low Voltage = Low Efficiency. That is why utilities run high voltage. Higher Voltage = lower initial installation cost and higher efficiency. 12 volts is is for low power TOYS and does not work well with higher power items. As the distance increases from the power source to the load, the more expensive and less efficient the system is. There are two ways to overcome the problem. Either increase the voltage or use much larger more expensive wire.

• If you increase the voltage, wiring cost goes down, efficiency goes up, and safety is improved.
• If you increase the wire size for lower voltages, you are going to spend a lot more on wire cost and increase, lower efficiency, and increase your chances of a fire and melt down.

So by your misplaced logic is leading you to poor decisions. You only know enough to be dangerous. Additionally being compounded by trying to answer questions you should not be answering. You are doing more harm than good.

Lets K.I.S.S. Watts divided by Volts = Amps & Amps X Volts = Watts Ying&Yang

[Sunking]

I might need some correcting on this.
For sizing your battery with inverter, you will want to consider two things; PF (power factor) and inverter efficiency.
I tested this on a mini fridge and the losses from PF alone is what steered me to 12 volt only appliances.

Sorry to butt in but you need a lot of help. You have come to the wrong conclusions and made poor decisions. Basically you know enough to be dangerous, but not near enough to apply it to anything.

PF is only a problem for Inverters and generators limiting how large a load they can handle. What you do not understand is the difference between True or Real Power, and Apparent Power.

PF = Real Power / Apparent Power

Example say 600 watts / 1000 Watts = PF 0.6.

For the moment assume the Inverter is 100% efficiency and operating at 12 volts. So here is where you are going wrong. How much power is actually being taken from the battery? I bet you would say 1000 watts right?

Wrong, dead wrong. It is only supplying 600 watts and at 12 volts is 50 amps. So how does PF come into play. Well if the Inverter above were say 1000 watts supplying 600 watts into a load with a PF = 0.6 means the Inverter is at maximum capacity and cannot supply any more Real Power because Apparent power is at the maximum limit of 1000 Volt Amps. Real Power is the heat energy or real work being done. Think of Volt-Amps like a politician or News Media with a PF = 0.5. Half of what is being said is pure fiction with a biased agenda.

That is only half the story of where you are screwing yourself. Low Voltage = Low Efficiency. That is why utilities run high voltage. Higher Voltage = lower initial installation cost and higher efficiency. 12 volts is is for low power TOYS and does not work well with higher power items. As the distance increases from the power source to the load, the more expensive and less efficient the system is. There are two ways to overcome the problem. Either increase the voltage or use much larger more expensive wire.

• If you increase the voltage, wiring cost goes down, efficiency goes up, and safety is improved.
• If you increase the wire size for lower voltages, you are going to spend a lot more on wire cost and increase, lower efficiency, and increase your chances of a fire and melt down.

So by your misplaced logic is leading you to poor decisions. You only know enough to be dangerous. Additionally being compounded by trying to answer questions you should not be answering. You are doing more harm than good.

[Paul Land]

Merry Christmas and to all a good night!

[Ho jo]

Now washer and temperature calculations.record low -20f batteries are at 35 percent capacity WOW.