Lightning grounding issues

[Denam]

The plan is to run some radio equipment using solar (100 watt 12v panel & 100ah battery). All of the equipment (radios, antennas, coax transmission lines, AC power supply, radio/antenna interfaces & etc.) are currently tied into a common earth ground. Each antenna has a separate 8' ground rod and there is another grounding rod at the house, before anything enters the house. All my internal equipment (radio, power system, & etc.) is connected to a grounding bus. The bus is connected to the ground rod at the house. I hope this all makes sense but the idea is to keep the electricity outside the house during a lightning strike.

Anyway, there is no way for me to know for sure but the assumption is that all of my radio equipment uses a negative (-) ground. When I made my solar purchases, I made sure the controller used a negative ground. Of course, the idea was that I would tie the radio equipment into the solar system.

In all my reading, I never saw anything about a positive grounding PV panel but guess what?
When my panel arrived, it had the following instructions:

"For optimum performance, this module must only be used with a galvanic insulated controller where the positive (+) polarity of the PV array is directly connected to earth and protected by a fuse."

The instructions went on to explain the ground could be installed at the positive terminal of the controller or by splicing a ground wire to the positive wire at the PV and attaching it to a earth ground rod.

It warned about a mobile system "without a solid ground" was not permitted although they also mentioned the grounding system can be "exempted only in the case of a 12 Volt" system.

By the time I finished with the instructions written in China, I was thoroughly confused. Not only did I have a positive ground PV and a negative ground controller, now I had to figure out how my radio equipment worked out in this can of worms.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why anyone would fuse a earth grounding circuit. A current flow that blows a fuse would defeat the purpose of a ground. Not only that, if I followed their instructions, I could have a external PV (subject to lightning issues) that would route the lightning into my home and then back out to the ground. That defies all common sense.

I saw some internet chatter about PV ion build-up and that grounding eliminated that issue. That certainly doesn't sound like that deals with lightning issue though or how the solar grounding system ties in with any preexisting electrical grounding system.

So, what do I do? Can I use the current set-up (positive PV, negative controller, & negative radio) I have or do I have to find another solution?

[Logan5]

For radio grounding issues, consider Radioreference dot com and ARRL, among others, there is some disarrangements on where when and how, but it is best for you to do the reading of antenna suppourt structure grounding. since many HAM's also run solar panels and batteries, you will find good knowledge and Ham radio based theories on grounding and bonding points.

[Denam]

Thanks Logan5. I'm member of the ARRL and have read a lot of documentation on the requirements of earth grounding, lightning protection, and the importance of electrical safety. That is one of the reasons I use a common ground system. I already have a lot of copper in the ground and would have more, if I could afford it. The basic idea is to keep the lightning outside the home so there is no flash-over in the wiring inside the building. There's probably nothing worse than lightning finding a ground by passing through your house.

The reason I came to this site is because the grounding issue is directly related to a solar install. Can I use a positive PV with a negative controller? Assuming I can use the two together, is ion grounding an issue if I don't worry about tying the solar system into the common ground?

[Jagtig]

I'm also concerned with lightning, having witnessed a horrific strike a few hundred yards from a "solar farm" during a summer thunderstorm. A man was badly burned, and I was badly shaken, surviving only by dint of having taken the precaution of climbing up on a wooden picnic table as the storm approached. I'm pretty sure the man most affected died of his injuries, as he was burned over most of his body, and his clothing was melted into his flesh.. The initial strike was small by lightning-standards, but a low-voltage, "black," or non-visible, electrical flow seemed to continue for an unknown amount of time. It kept me paralyzed and unable to move, since any attempt to do so was greeted with a feeling of intense heat within my head. This is a characteristic symptom of lightning strike on humans and animals. Okay, I don't want to panic anyone, but I am sure the lightning "came off" the solar farm, and there was an interaction of the exposed high-tension cables running along the road, nearby, and the air or dust coming off the solar farm. This would coincide with the possibility "electron leakage," where the generation of excited electrons by the solar panels exceeds the ability of the system to distribute them to demand areas of the distribution system, or the circuit is imperfect in other ways. They would "ground" to the air, and charge up dust particles in the vicinity or adhering to the glass coverings. The heat of the farm gets very, very hot, during the long summer days, and that may play a role in the matter, as well. Anyway, to sum up, I think that the circuitry theory used is inadequate in a congested area, where exposed high-tension lines are present nearby, and the area is prone to lightning, or thunderstorms. The last thing I would mention is that just just before the lightning strike, a glow of excited methane (I could smell it) rose from the ground, and we were in a low area bounded on all sides by swamp and water. It was this that convinced me we were about to be struck. I'm pretty sure the strike was ground-to-air, and the visible stroke rose perhaps fifty feet, enough to cause a cracking sound, but not a thunderclap. Fifty feet is also the height of the uninsulated high-tension lines, nearby.

[foo1bar]

100W 12V panel? It's $150 or so? And if it degrades by 4%/year instead of 2% you probably won't care? (Or for that matter, if you need to buy a new one in 3 years, you'll probably just see it as just an acceptable expense for your hobby?)

I'd probably use it, rather than deal with returning it - the part you quoted just said "For optimum performance" - it didn't say you can't use a negative ground configuration.

[Mike90250]

Brand, Model and photo of the sticker on the back side of the panel. If this is one of the old panels that had ion poisoning build up, I think they can loose 50% power in a minus Ground install.


Sunpower 90 w panels were known for this "feature" and sunpower would gladly sell you a special + ground controller for it.

Excerpt:

Introduction

In August, 2005 SunPower announced the discovery of a new performance effect observed in high efficiency silicon solar cells. This new effect, called “surface polarization,” creates the non-destructive and reversible accumulation of static charge on the surface of high-efficiency solar cells such as the company’s all back contact A-300.

The high efficiency of SunPower’s A-300 solar cell is obtained in part by covering its front surface with a proprietary coating which prevents the loss of the charge carriers generated by sunlight. This layer performs much like a transistor that is turned off, preventing current flow. If a large enough voltage is applied to the front of the cell, the “transistor” effectively turns on, allowing charge carriers to recombine at the front surface. When this happens, surface polarization reduces the output current of the cell. Also, like a transistor this effect can be fully reversed and current returned to the original level.

How Surface Polarization Occurs

Surface polarization can occur when a module is put into operation at high positive voltages. If the module is operated at a positive voltage with respect to the earth ground, then minute leakage current will flow from the cells to ground. As a result, over time a negative charge is left on the front surface of a cell. This negative charge turns on the surface transistor, attracting positive charge carries to the front surface where they recombine with electrons and are lost.

[inetdog]

Ensure that you never ground to a buildings electrical ground. Use 8-10 gauge copper wire at least.

Not a helpful comment. Nor accurate.

[bcroe]

I would throw that 100W panel away and get a modern 250W or 300W panel, which will have a long life and a FAR cheaper watt per $.
There are dozens of such panels here which have run for years using negative ground. Bruce Roe K9MQG

[Sunking]

Can I use a positive PV with a negative controller? Assuming I can use the two together, is ion grounding an issue if I don't worry about tying the solar system into the common ground?

No you cannot. In the meantime go here and read up on Grounding and read all three parts. I do this for a living.

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

73's

KF5LJW

[Denam]

Thanks Sunking

What I have at this point is what is referred to in Part 3 as the Single Point Isolated Ground Plane.

At each antenna there is a ground rod, which the coax shield is attached to. There is no tower that I need to worry about. The coax lines terminate at my residence, and each coax line ends with a coax lightning arrestor. The arrestors are attached to a Ground Window. The Ground Window has an additional ground rod attached to it.

Inside the shack, all my radio equipment is attached to a common ground bus. The ground bus is connected to the Ground Window.

All I wanted to do was power my radio equipment. A 100 watt panel mounted to a 4x4, a PWM controller, a 100ah AGM battery and a backup battery charger. Maybe someplace in the future, upgrade a bit to run a small inverter (independent of my installed home AC wiring). The "plan" seemed so simple. Ground the PV frame with another grounding rod, run the wiring into the house into, and handle any grounding via the Ground Window. Someplace along the way, I read something about a positive (+) ground controller so I made sure I got a negative (-) ground one.

When my PV panel arrived, there was some obscure Chinese instructions about it being positive (+) ground and the positive lead needed to be grounded to earth, apparently because of some ion build-up on the panel.

That's where I sit at this point. Clueless on what I need to do.

[Sunking]

Warning that PWM Controller and in fact 90% of any Charge Controllers can wipe out your receivers in HF band. It is not until you get to 6 and 2 meters when you escape the noise.I have a 250 watt panel with a MPPT controller, But honestly it is never ever used for anything. I do have my radios on a pair of T-105RE batteries with solar. However I also have my Astron 70 amp Power Supply hooked up to the batteries, so the Astron does all the work nigh and day.

On contest weekends when I did that silliness, a pair of T-105's would last for several days using a 100 watt Transceiver. So having said that, not sure Solar really buys you anything in terms of redundancy and backup. With a decent 12 volt Power Supply and properly sized battery, you can work a week without power.

[Denam]

I'm running a Yaesu FTDX- 3000 and Yaesu 857D. Both of these radios use about 22 amps during transmit so a 30 amp Powerwerx power supply meets all my needs. My focus is a long term grid-down situation, which would kill all of my communications. Being dependent on fuel to run a generator is unacceptable so solar seems a very viable solution to that problem.

I had some real concerns about the HF/Controller interference problems especially after the recent QST article. The writer of the article had spent considerable time and money to correct the RF interference problem. Since I wasn't going with solar where he went, I figured if I ran into problems I could use the solar for charging but shut the charging down during radio use.

With all the hassles I'm running into, I'm starting to rethink things. Maybe I should run my equipment off of batteries using a grid-connected charger. Forget about the permanently fixed solar panel and replace it with flexible PV panels setup that could be deployed when needed. That would also add some portable radio options.

[Sunking]

With all the hassles I'm running into, I'm starting to rethink things. Maybe I should run my equipment off of batteries using a grid-connected charger. Forget about the permanently fixed solar panel and replace it with flexible PV panels setup that could be deployed when needed. That would also add some portable radio options.

That is what smart money does and pros do. No Telephone, TV, Radio, Data or Military would use solar. They use Rectifiers > Battery > Inverter, and if commercial power fails they have dual redundant Generators.

I have a 857D and while it is true they can draw up to 22 amps, but that is way misleading. Surre 22-amps if you are using FM at full power, but if you are using SSB way way less than that.

You can charge your battery with solar if you want. But if you plan on operating during day light hours, you wil have to disconnect the panels from the controller to be able to hear much of anything. There are only 1 or 2 controllers out there that can be used with radio.

Be glad you do not have Grid Tied System. You would have to give up Radio. Ask the whackos in California. Grid Tied Inverters generate a tremendous about of RFI that flows right down the power lines and radiates. Commercial broadcast AM radio is almost history along the west coast. But who cares? No one listens to AM radio much anymore. Sort of like us Ham Radio Operators. Last club meeting I went to I had to dodge and weave around all the oxygen tanks. The meeting was more like a Nursing Home full of old fossils sucking O2 . Kids have no interest in Ham Radio, they have cell phones and tablets.

OK now to be serious. Get yourself a pair of Trojan T-105 batteries. They are 6-Volt 225 AH batteries. You do not need a battery charger, you can use your DC Power Supply set to the correct voltage. For a Trojan T-105 is 13.5 Volts. You can operate for days without power on your 857D which is the reason you would use batteries. The trick for using your power supply is it need Current Limit which most supplies have today. I use my Astron and had to make one simple modification.

If you let me know what kind of PS you have, I can check to see if it will work as a battery charger. Every Battery Charger is a DC Power Supply. But not all Power Supplies can be used as a Battery Charger, they have to have current limit and made for 100% duty cycle.

FWIW if you insist on Solar you will need a 200 watt panel, and a MorningStar Sun Saver MPPT 15 amp Charge Controller. However that is a $400 to $500 toy to charge your battery. A good DC Power Supply less than $200 and runs circles around Solar.

Last comment. If you decide to go with batteries, with or without solar, DO NOT use a Car Battery aka SLI. Also never use a Gel battery. Use a good quality Deep Cycle Flooded Lead Acid like the T-105. AGm can also be used but at very high cost and short life. If you need help in battery selection just Ping Us. Just do not do something silly like buy a car or truck battery.

73's to you.

KF5LJW out.

[Denam]

Thanks

The news about the PS adds some light to the darkness. My PS is a Powerwerx SS-30DV ( https://powerwerx.com/ss30dv-desktop...pply-powerpole ). Great people to deal with. Even provided a free, new cooling fan when my out-of-warrant one started whining. Anyway, if you have a way this PS can be adapted for charging, I would appreciate the info.

I wanted Trojans but finally went with a 100ah deep cycle AGM battery. Since this battery is sitting in my bedroom shack, I didn't want to deal with hydrogen and the associated wet cell issues.

[Denam]

Thanks to everyone for all the help. In the end, I have decided to go with a portable PV array. That will allow me to charge my RV batteries or to charge my home batteries and it can be deployed as needed This also eliminates the RF interference issues the solar controller can cause.

Sunking, I have found 3 units that work as a PS/charger controller. In the end, I'll probably go with the West Mountain Radio Super PWRgate PG40S ( http://www.westmountainradio.com/pro...ducts_id=pg40s ). It has the blackout switching and includes a built-in 4 stage charger.

By the way, got to love Amazon and their free return shipping. The positive (+) ground PV array is no longer a concern of mine.

[Sunking]

Thanks

The news about the PS adds some light to the darkness. My PS is a Powerwerx SS-30DV ( https://powerwerx.com/ss30dv-desktop...pply-powerpole ). Great people to deal with. Even provided a free, new cooling fan when my out-of-warrant one started whining. Anyway, if you have a way this PS can be adapted for charging, I would appreciate the info.

Unfortunately it is not a candidate as a Float Charger because it has fixed voltage output @ 14.1 volts. It needs to be adjustable from 13 to 14 volts to match the battery Float Voltage which ranges from 13.2 to 13.8 volts. You cannot do that with a fixed voltage.

But here is what you can do with it. Buy a Hobby Battery charger like an iCharger 206B. It will charge any battery type, with any algorithm, from 1.5 to 30 volts up to 25 amps. It will test and discharge batteries and tell you everything there is to know about the battery under test. It is a 350 watt Charger. All it takes is a 12 volt 30 amp power supply to use it. You have a 12 volt 30 amp PS

I have something similar, just larger and can charge up to 40 volt battery at 50 amps. When i say any battery type, I mean all of them known today and any battery in the future.

Anyway to use a DC power supply as a battery charger has to meet 3 requirements.

• Adjustable Regulated Voltage, your does not do that.
• Capable of 100% Duty cycle because it can take several hours at full power. Your PS is rated 100% @ 25 amps, 30 amps intermittent.
• Current limiting.

A great PS for a Ham with batteries is any Astron PS models VS-M and VRM-M Series. You can set the voltage from 2 to 15 volts. Best of all control current limiting from 1 amp up to maximum. They last forever and extremely easy to fix with off the shelf Transistors and Op-Amps a kid can fix. If SHTF and you are the last person on earth makes a good boat anchor as they are ole fashion brute force transformer and caps. Pure DC power like a battery with no ripple or noise.