A couple of ideas on keeping panels moisture free

[Sunking]

There is a point that I forgot to make when I replied Sizz. It's really unfair to blame DIY solar panels for fire hazard, considering that there were many cases of fire caused by commercial panels installed professionally.

I can tell you the difference, just one little thing, no big deal. If a professional installed system with UL panels causes the fire you get a check from your insurance company, the electricians if they did bad work, the city if they missed something on the inspection, and the panel manufacture.

If you build it and install it yourself you get a bird flipped at you by your insurance company, house payments for a pile of rubble, fined by the city for an illegal installation, liable for all damages to your neighbors property, and a great big bill from your local FD.

Not much, just a little thing.

[bigsmile]

I hope the earth is UL certified so that if one day it's swallowed by a black hole, us human beings can get some compensation money from insurance.

Well I guess it still doesn't help if the black hole is not UL listed.

I can tell you the difference, just one little thing, no big deal. If a professional installed system with UL panels causes the fire you get a check from your insurance company, the electricians if they did bad work, the city if they missed something on the inspection, and the panel manufacture.

If you build it and install it yourself you get a bird flipped at you by your insurance company, house payments for a pile of rubble, fined by the city for an illegal installation, liable for all damages to your neighbors property, and a great big bill from your local FD.

Not much, just a little thing.

[russ]

UL certification is there to protect the consumer plus business. It tries to insure you get what you think you are getting or what others think you have - a unit that is safe to operate.

The fact that not having UL certification stops some ideas which are of questionable nature is a credit to it.

[bigsmile]

Bottom line is, building a solar panel is not rocket science. It's simple enough for DIYers. DIYers may make crappy panels but crappy panels don't necessarily harm the grid if connected through a UL-certified inverter. If you can think of any realistic risk that grid-tying self made panels can pose to the grid, please mention it, I'll really appreciate it.

[Mike90250]

Bottom line is, building a solar panel is not rocket science. It's simple enough for DIYers. DIYers may make crappy panels but crappy panels don't necessarily harm the grid if connected through a UL-certified inverter. If you can think of any realistic risk that grid-tying self made panels can pose to the grid, please mention it, I'll really appreciate it.

I'm a beliver, but just laying out the laws so you don't get a big scheme implememted and then discover :
1) won't pass inspection
2) electric company cuts you off for unathorised connection. reconnect fee is $3K or something nasty.

[bigsmile]

I need to clarify that I haven't even planed to do anything in the dark, to hide anything from the city or the utility company. When I talked to the utility guy, I was very frank. I told him exactly what my idea is. He said it OK as long as it's inspected. And when he said inspection, I didn't hear any sense of irony or dismissal in his tone. He actually laid out what inspection means. It's basically some professionals come over to check if it's safe. One thing he emphasized was that there need to be a cut off switch which cut the whole thing off. I really don't know which of my post gives you the idea that I'm planning anything unauthorized.

I do trust the local policy, which makes a lot of sense to me. I don't think a grid-tied DIY panel through UL certified inverter impose any potential danger that a commercial panel system or off-grid DIY panel system doesn't, provided it's inspected by a professional.

I'm a beliver, but just laying out the laws so you don't get a big scheme implememted and then discover :
1) won't pass inspection
2) electric company cuts you off for unathorised connection. reconnect fee is $3K or something nasty.

[Mike90250]

I don't think a grid-tied DIY panel through UL certified inverter impose any potential danger that a commercial panel system or off-grid DIY panel system doesn't, provided it's inspected by a professional.

The catch is, no professional will risk his licence on a non-UL certified system. (at least in USA that I know of) Go ahead, make me wrong though, and blaze a trail for other followers.

[bigsmile]

Let me cite something from WIKI about ul-listing.

"The UL Mark does not carry any legal weight beyond that of any other trademark. It is common practice in many fields to specify Listed equipment or Recognized materials. Local jurisdictional authorities, such as building, electrical and fire inspectors, are charged with ensuring that construction in their jurisdictions complies with adopted building codes, which often require listed components. Recognition of a particular testing laboratory is left to the discretion of the authority having jurisdiction. The UL is listed as a "nationally-recognized testing laboratory", by OSHA, along with several others."

It's clear from this description that whether ul-listing is necessary is up to the local authority.

The catch is, no professional will risk his licence on a non-UL certified system. (at least in USA that I know of) Go ahead, make me wrong though, and blaze a trail for other followers.

[Mike90250]

I think you are mistaking my commenting about reality, with arguement.

Your homeowners insurance, upon finding something non-UL in your house, that could have caused the fire, will be void. And when was the last time a person in a singular event, prevailed against Insurnace?

[bigsmile]

What fire? You guys really made me feel like my home had already gone ablaze and reduced to rubble, and may be also my neighbor's house.

In one of my post, I mentioned that even if I build panels, it's not going to go on the roof, because I happen to have east/west sloped roof.

I think you are mistaking my commenting about reality, with arguement.

Your homeowners insurance, upon finding something non-UL in your house, that could have caused the fire, will be void. And when was the last time a person in a singular event, prevailed against Insurnace?

[russ]

About the quote from a Wiki - A great amount of information in the various Wikis is highly suspect. In most cases it is not much more than the opinion of the last person to edit an article.

There may well be a commercial or political bias to the information.

In one of your posts you said you did not want to give up yard space I thought.

[Sunking]

When I talked to the utility guy, I was very frank. I told him exactly what my idea is. He said it OK as long as it's inspected. And when he said inspection,

That is because you do not understand what he is telling you, nor is it his job t make you understand. He just told you the facts.

What you do not understand is what the is required to pass an inspection. First step it to apply for a building permit. When you do that you are required to provide plans, drawings , EQUIPMENT LIST, building contractor liscense number doing the work doing the work.

You would never receive a permit with DIY panels. Buts lets say you did slip it by. When inspection time comes, the inspector is going to look for a listing stamp on each piece of equipment installed. Guess what he is not going to find with a DIY panel. He will then red flag the project and walk away giving his report to the licensed contractor doing the work.contractor.

Now do you see any problems in your theory? Well I do, you do not know what you are talking about or doing.

[Sunking]

It's clear from this description that whether ul-listing is necessary is up to the local authority.

Again you are right,but have no idea of what you are talking about.

All local jurisdictions adopt the NEC. Some go even further with local amendments like Chicago requiring all wiring to be installed in raceway. From NEC Article 100.1 Listing
EQUIPMENT, MATERIAL, or services by an included in a list of a PUBLISHED ORGANIZATION concerned with evaluation of Products and Services, that maintains periodic inspection of product of LISTED equipment or materials or periodic evaluation of services, and whose listing states that the equipment , material, or services either meets appropriate designated standards or has been tested and found suitable for the specified purpose.

So what this mean sis the Equipment has to be listed, it does not mean the listing agency has to be UL but it has to be listed by a recognized authority your jurisdiction recognizes. Care to guess which Listing Agency in the USA jurisdictions recognize. I bet you $1,000,000 it is not BIGSMILES

So yep your utility rep told you the truth, all he needs to know to be legal to kook you up is the system pass inspection. That is all they need to be free and clear of liability.

[Mike90250]

Just a side note here - SMA just got UL approval to sell their transformerless inverters in USA.

http://www.electroiq.com/index/display/pv-wire-news-display/1248834456.html

Till now, one of the Big Boys have been prevented from even selling the units in the states, while they had met Europes approval.

[bigsmile]

NEC doesn't really require UL listing or other nrtl certification. What Sunking posted looks like the definition of "listed" on NEC.

A relevant article on NEC is 110.3. While this article doesn't state nrtl certification being required, local AHJs usually have amendments that require so. For example, according to the document sent me by the utility guy I mentioned, it does mention UL 1741 inverter. But it doesn't say the panels have to be nrtl certified. What it states is that if an equipment is certified, then it is considered in compliance with the codes. I suppose this means it has to be evaluated if it's not listed.