DIY solar panels

[Sunking]

I'll be asking for the location in the NEC where it specifically says that panels need to be third party lab tested.

You do not have to ask it is spelled out for you in Article 690.04

(D) Equipment.

Inverters, motor generators, photovoltaic
modules, photovoltaic panels, ac photovoltaic modules,
source-circuit combiners, and charge controllers intended
for use in photovoltaic power systems shall be identified
and listed for the application.

Could not be any more clear than that.

So if the POCO said nothing has to be listed and approved before the inverter is just plain Poppycock, or you misunderstood what they said. If that were true there would be no article 690 or any electrical codes. .

[Sunking]

I'll be asking for the location in the NEC where it specifically says that panels need to be third party lab tested.

You will not find it specifically as it is defined in Chapter one article 100. If th eNEc tried to do what you suggest the code book would be a set of encyclopedias.

As I stated earlier Chapter 1, 2, 3, and 4 apply to ALL installations. Chaperts 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 are additional and/or modified requirements. Every article in chapters 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 have this exact same verbiage.

690.3 Other Articles. Wherever the requirements of other
articles of this Code and Article 690 differ, the requirements
of Article 690 shall apply and, if the system is operated in
parallel with a primary source(s) of electricity, the requirements
in 705.14, 705.16, 705.32, and 705.143 shall apply.
Exception: Solar photovoltaic systems, equipment, or wiring
installed in a hazardous (classified) location shall also comply
with the applicable portions of Articles 500 through 516.

Here is a modification that would normally be in Chapter 2 article 240:

690.8 Circuit Sizing and Current.
(A) Calculation of Maximum Circuit Current. The
maximum current for the specific circuit shall be calculated
in accordance with 690.8(A)(1) through (A)(4).

Now here is another that says refer to Chapter 2

690.43 Equipment Grounding.

Exposed non–currentcarrying
metal parts of module frames, equipment, and conductor
enclosures shall be grounded in accordance with
250.134 or 250.136(A) regardless of voltage. An equipment
grounding conductor between a PV array and other equipment
shall be required in accordance with 250.110.

So unless article 690 modifies anything in Chapters 1, 2, 3, and 4, it applies.

[tjames]

I'll let ya know. I'll be asking for the location in the NEC where it specifically says that panels need to be third party lab tested. I have looked and not found this text. Absent that, I'll ask for his interpretation of grey area decision making. I've also contacted an engineering firm specializing in the electrical aspects of building code. I may pay them for a thorough interpretation of all of this. To me, all of the details and code demands are from the inverter on. Other than that NEC quote I posted, I have found no discussion regarding the panel manufacturing at all. Only that the specs be listed. But I'm still looking and listening.

Thanks, really. I'm very grateful that you would even take the time to reply.

[Sunking]

Several agents from the utility already agreed the regs are after the inverter.

From their POV yes they are correct, they have no jurisdiction what goes on before it and could care less as it is not their problem. Your local inspector will care.

[tjames]

Several agents from the utility already agreed the regs are after the inverter. And that's the way I've read everything so far. Nothing says no.

I hear what you're saying, and this has helped me a lot so far, but outside of this forum, not one individual has said no.

I have a meeting in the AM with the electrical inspector.

[Sunking]

Gren as a general rule what the POCO is looking for is that Green Inspection Tag and paperwork the AHJ issues to the HO. They can also add any other requirements they want, but in my 33 years experience is just repeating what local and National Electrical Codes require. For example if in a rural area without a code enforcement agency, the POCO is going to have requirements and those requirements will mirror NEC.

NESC if for utilities, they are exempt from National Electrical Codes and a separate entity. Basically NESC if for High Voltage which requires a completely different set of rules and safety requirements. NEC mostly pertains to low voltage of 600 volts and less.

A utility in your town or city has a Franchise Contract with the city or township. In a lot of cities about every 10 to 20 years there may be a public vote to grant a FRanchise which is usually a Monopoly Franchise agreement. In return the Utility pays th ecity Big Bucks in the form of excise tax. Once approved the city grants the utility Right-Of-Ways and exempts them from permits, inspections, and any fees associated with construction. NESC sets the rules and regulations for utilities. NESC is the Insurance Underwriter.

So when you want to connect to the utility they want that Green Tag. What it boils down to is responsibility. Customer Site passed inspection means if something blows up or catches fire on the customer side of the meter is not the Utility responsibility It is the City Inspector, Electrician, and Home Owners problem and liability. Or CYA.

Bottom line is neither a local code enforcement agency or utility is not going to allow non listed approved equipment. To much liability and risk involved.

[green]

As you pointed out previously, the NEC, Article 690 discusses PV setups. I can't where it specially details any testing standard or UL rating for the panels. Not that I could see. The closest reference to anything they want on the panel itself is:

Photovoltaic Module Module Marking
• NEC 690.51
• Modules shall be marked with Identification of terminal/lead polarity, maximum OCPD rating, and:
1. Open-circuit voltage (VOC)
2. Operating voltage (VMP)
3. Maximum permissible system voltage
4. Operating current (IMP)
5. Short-circuit current (ISC)
6. Maximum power

No mention of yes or no on the DC source. Just that the calcs have to be on a label.

I'm just educated guessing here but I'm imagining these measurements are pretty heavily regulated. Maybe it's not required to be done by a third, independent party, but the companies can't lie about output. Now you, measuring with a multimeter and making a nameplate with a Sharpie, isn't going to cut it with most AHJ inspectors.

I still haven't had time to look, but in my POCO's interconnection agreement there is a section about Listed and Non-Listed equipment. It pertains to the whole cogenerating system not just the inverter. Non-Listed equipment must be tested at YOUR expense. Sounds expensive to me.

The part that Sunking brought up about the POCO not having jurisdiction over my side of the meter is news to me. It makes sense though. I don't know how (or if) my POCO does but they sound very strict in the Renwable Energy Cogeneration agreement.

[Sunking]

May I ask where this quote was found?

I already told you, NEC article 100. Copy and pasted directly for NEC chapter 1. 690 is only part of it. All other chapters 1. 2, 3, and 4 apply like definitions, wiring, grounding race ways, cable sizes, etc all apply. 690 or chapter 6 are additional requirements to chapters 1, 2, 3, and 4.

[tjames]

Listed. Equipment, materials, or services included in a list
published by an organization that is acceptable to the authority
having jurisdiction and concerned with evaluation
of products or services, that maintains periodic inspection
of production of listed equipment or materials or periodic
evaluation of services, and whose listing states that either
the equipment, material, or service meets appropriate designated
standards or has been tested and found suitable for
a specified purpose.

May I ask where this quote was found?

[tjames]

As you pointed out previously, the NEC, Article 690 discusses PV setups. I can't where it specially details any testing standard or UL rating for the panels. Not that I could see. The closest reference to anything they want on the panel itself is:

Photovoltaic Module Module Marking
• NEC 690.51
• Modules shall be marked with Identification of terminal/lead polarity, maximum OCPD rating, and:
1. Open-circuit voltage (VOC)
2. Operating voltage (VMP)
3. Maximum permissible system voltage
4. Operating current (IMP)
5. Short-circuit current (ISC)
6. Maximum power

No mention of yes or no on the DC source. Just that the calcs have to be on a label.

[Sunking]

And the connections before the meter are governed by the NEC, right?

House side behind or downstream is NEC. Utility side NESC

Utility has no authority on the load or house side of the meter, and vice versa the city has no authority over the utility. Completely separate entities playing to a completely different set of rules. The demarc is the meter disconnect device.

[tjames]

And the connections before the meter are governed by the NEC, right?

[Sunking]

What is the POCO?

I rest my case.

POCO = Power Company

[tjames]

What is the POCO? Power Company?

"...Everything before the meter is NESC, everything after the meter is NEC..." So I'm clear, you are considering the PV array to be before the meter? Meaning that the NEC code is relevant.

[Sunking]

I just confirmed with our state's Net Metering department that you can use any method to generate electricity and build it yourself. You are NOT required to buy someone else's panel. No electrician or inspector can dictate otherwise. Code kicks in after the DC-AC conversion, and that of course is very reasonable.

That is pure BS and anyone in the business knows better.

The POCO does not have jurisdiction or say so what so ever period. POCO is regulated by NESC (National Electrical Safety Committee). Home premises wiring falls under NFPA 71 (National Fire Protection Association) NEC (National Electrical Code). The demarc is the electric meter Disconnect Device. Everything before the meter is NESC, everything after the meter is NEC and the AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction) aka as city-county electrical inspector has full authority to approve or disapprove anything and everything on the customer side of the meter. Every licensed electrical contractor or building contractor is painfully aware because anyone who has been in the biz for more than 1 job has been bit in the a$$ and lost many a profit with NEC Article 100

Listed. Equipment, materials, or services included in a list
published by an organization that is acceptable to the authority
having jurisdiction and concerned with evaluation
of products or services, that maintains periodic inspection
of production of listed equipment or materials or periodic
evaluation of services, and whose listing states that either
the equipment, material, or service meets appropriate designated
standards or has been tested and found suitable for
a specified purpose.

DIY panels are not listed and the POCO has no jurisdiction. All the POCO requires is that the installation before they connect has passed local AHJ inpection. That means the local electrical inspector and NEC codes.