Lithium Batteries

[russ]

like commercial grid customers,

That is where the real money is anyway - if it can be made to perform there then maybe there will be a trickle down for other uses.

If the electric generators can use such a thing to shift baseline power from low periods to peak periods everyone can win.

[PNjunction]

Ok, I've had a chance to chill out, rethink yet again.

The energy-density of the Na-Ion Aquion is pretty low. That just means a larger battery for a given capacity. Thus it may not make sense (or even fit) inside the current crop of vehicles, (Prof Jay Whitacre may have even mentioned this in one of his videos..) , may not be a good fit for marine house-banks, not good for powertools, you name it based on it's size. For those who DO have the room for these things, like commercial grid customers, or the odd backyard solar beta tester with space to burn, then it might be something to look into. It is interesting.

Currently most of the world is going the other direction - trying to get the most energy density in the smallest and lightest package possible, without sacrificing stability / safety - and so far that means trying to perfect the li-ion family of related chemistries.

So I think that for 99.99% of us, the Aquion will remain a niche commercial battery. You'll never see one over the counter at the auto-parts or EV store.

And that's the crux of the matter - does the energy density fit your application in the first place? Thus, it reiterates the fact that NO battery is a drop-in replacement for everything else, despite marketing that may make you want to think so.

[mapmaker]

Ok, we're done. No more rants. (crowd cheers!)

I'm not cheering... I find that there is a kernel of truth in your rants,
and I read this forum in an attempt to find those kernels.

--mapmaker

[PNjunction]

Checked it out. Ok, I gotta' let this one go for my own health. Hope it does well.

Ok, one last thought before I drop my interest in it - and this isn't really Aquion specific.

Despite an overall savings from lifecycle amortization claims, if the upfront cost of a battery system is too large, that means there is NO room for mistake when engineering your system, unless you want to sit on unused inventory when you rebuild the system again with the right capacity. That is, if you aren't willing to get into the used-battery business. At least with Pb, that kind of hit may not break your bottom line if you have to start over.

That's why I'd want to see *exacting* technical specs, not just marketing claims - the cost of making a mistake at elevated prices would be disastrous. Getting these exacting technical specs after purchase or only after during that process kind of makes me angry. Imagine trying to buy a Rolls-Surrette that way. But that's just me.

Ok, we're done. No more rants. (crowd cheers!)

[russ]

This is something different than their earlier go - http://www.aquionenergy.com/energy-storage-technology

[ChrisOlson]

Sunking - I seem to recall from what I read someplace that they do use some sort of carbon in one plate with manganese in the other, and the electrolyte is salt water. The low cost of the materials used to build them, I would think, will make them cheaper eventually.

I only know what I've heard about them from ryan at MidNite Solar, who has one for his off-grid system. He can't say anything about it because of NDA, other than it works as advertised and he's pretty impressed with it.

[Sunking]

If Aquion is what I think it is, a Lead Carbon technology, then they are late to the game as Deka and one other I cannot recall already have products on the market. Deka Lead Carbon is already in use on utility scale energy storage at wind farms and conventional generation.

[PNjunction]

It should, but at what cost?

I'm already paying 5X or more for Lifepo4 up front, and that is starting to get old really fast. I could amortize a Ferrari and convince myself it is a good purchase, but as of yet, there isn't one in my driveway.

About 2X the cost of lead is about all I could justify. Even then, I could just replace Pb twice if availability of the new battery was a hassle. Make it easy to purchase, and make it cheap, otherwise it remains a niche product that will never cross my driveway.

[russ]

It would be great if the battery is viable - for starters it would allow more efficient use of baseline power generation. Eventually it should trickle down to folks like us.

[mapmaker]

So, in essence the Aquion may not even need an LVC, but we don't know for sure how that affects cycle life.
<snip>
Still, until NDA's are lifted, and REAL specifications, (not just generalizations) are published openly for the common man, then the main ingredient is still un-obtainium.

I too would like to see real specs on Aquion, but let's give them a bit of a break... the batteries are still being beta tested and the manufacturer may yet tweak the specs as the batteries go through the test. It would not look good if they published specs now and had to change them in a few months.

--Mapmaker

[PNjunction]

This may be a stupid question, but isn't that a function of the particular battery chemistry?

YES! That is why I think it is a cheap tactic to compare itself to another chemistry, especially when they don't differentiate the characteristics between flooded and agm types. As an example: lead-crystal is a slight variation of agm. Yet their marketing was touting the differences to flooded lead acid, and promoting the characteristics of lead-crystal conveniently leaving out the fact that most of the advantages were merely standard features of normal agm's.

For me, marketing without *accurate, and open* specifications makes me crazy and has the opposite affect when they try to promote it. It sends my fluff-alarm into overdrive when the marketing is mere generalizations.

I had a rethink. Pushing a comparison to Pb/lead means tackling the biggest market in the world, ie vehicle batteries. One of the most common problems is draining it until dead, or until parasitic loads do the job. They can be resuscitated, but it takes a huge hit on cycle life.

So, in essence the Aquion may not even need an LVC, but we don't know for sure how that affects cycle life. Still, if recovery is possible, at least it will get you down the road for awhile. I could see it as an application here.

Essentially, it almost seems to be a lifepo4 replacement for abusive applications such as letting your vehicle battery die, and being able to be recovered by normal means.

Still, until NDA's are lifted, and REAL specifications, (not just generalizations) are published openly for the common man, then the main ingredient is still un-obtainium.

[pleppik]

And, unless they do something very magical, there is NO usable power past 80% DOD in real-world terms. You hit that deep discharge knee, and game over pretty soon if the lvc doesn't catch it. And even if it can survive an abusive discharge to 100% DOD, we don't know how that impacts cycle life.

This may be a stupid question, but isn't that a function of the particular battery chemistry?

As in, different battery chemistries behave differently under deep discharge, so the rule of thumb for lead-acid doesn't necessarily apply to other technologies?

Or am I missing something?

[ChrisOlson]

Nobody knows yet if the charger is a proprietary black box single-vendor lock-in component, (say that 5 times fast..) or if one has the skills to use their own charger properly.

One of the fellows that works for MidNite Solar has an Aquion battery on their beta test program. He's been charging it with Classics.

[PNjunction]

I was told that the Aquion battery is going to be "competitive" with lead-acid as far as price/kWh of storage. But with better cycle life, fewer toxic materials in it, and ability to discharge to 100% DoD with no damage to the battery and less voltage "sag" during discharge as compared to lead-acid.

I've seen lead-crystal battery marketers using the same comparison to lead-acid tactic. The reason this doesn't impress is that taking a Li-ion of whatever flavor down to 100% is abuse. That means your lvc failed or is not even installed. And, unless they do something very magical, there is NO usable power past 80% DOD in real-world terms. You hit that deep discharge knee, and game over pretty soon if the lvc doesn't catch it. And even if it can survive an abusive discharge to 100% DOD, we don't know how that impacts cycle life.

Less voltage sag under load? Child's play. One reason to choose AGM. One similar marketing tactic for lead-crystal was that it made sure to use "as compared to flooded lead-acid", and conveniently left out AGM. TPPL or pure-lead even better.

Toxic materials? Lead acid is supposed to be recycled, and due to being busted by the garbageman, most people that I know do recycle them. Not so with Li-ion where one is directed to recycle them for the stray copper / aluminum, but I suspect that due to their light weight and "less toxic" nature, most landfills will be littered with the plastic carcasses as they are simply ditched in the garbage - residential or commercial.

Nobody knows yet if the charger is a proprietary black box single-vendor lock-in component, (say that 5 times fast..) or if one has the skills to use their own charger properly.

I guess we'll find out any day now. I really have no explanation of why I get so fired up on li-ion. I guess I get angry when marketing shadows the technical details which I crave.

[russ]

But if all you can do when it arrives on a truck is sit under the shade tree drinking a beer and look at it going, "that is sure is a nice battery" it doesn't do you much good.

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