Liquid Metal batteries? More voodoo? or perhaps part of a bigger picture...

[kwilcox]

To the original topic: More detail on Enphase from my original post (see related thread in Solar Trends). Their solution is engage cable based and stackable. I'd need 4 to meet my daily overproduction requirements.

[PNjunction]

Kevin - If you equate residential energy storage and that for automotive use then fine - but they are two different ball games.

Right on Russ. Not keeping these two applications (residential solar and EV) separate means you'll be paying through the nose for "high rate" cells which can accept a huge amount of EV charge / discharge like 10-15C, which is not normally needed in a solar backup / off grid consumer application. You'll never make use of it just keeping your fridge, lights, etc going - UNLESS you purposely use a very small battery with very limited runtime.

Kevin - Instead of wishing and waiting, nothing is stopping anyone from using LiFePo4 batteries made out of large prismatic cells from the likes of GBS, CALB, Winston. These are not as high-rate as the EV cells, typically accepting up to 3-5C current, with .5 - 1C the normal recommendation and there is NO WAY you'll ever be taxing that capability either.

All the investor bait batteries are a total laugh, because you can't get a hold of them, are available "any day now" vaporware, shoehorning cells that are inappropiate for the application at hand etc. A common Joe like myself can get my hands on 2000ah large prismatic Lifepo4 cells tomorrow with a few clicks. Instead of waiting for investment, lifepo4 has been around long enough to start to become a commodity product that is no longer a hassle to get.

I like what Tesla is doing, and I'm sure the battery is high quality - however you can make a costly mistake by not keeping EV and storage applications separate - each with their own differing needs.

[russ]

I wouldn't say that Tesla "knows nothing about" energy storage Russ.

Kevin - If you equate residential energy storage and that for automotive use then fine - but they are two different ball games.

Musk - isn't he the one carrying on about AI and demons at present - yep I checked - sure enough it is him. Maybe he is going a bit wacko?

[kwilcox]

I wouldn't say that Tesla "knows nothing about" energy storage Russ.

[russ]

Kevin - Bigger names get involved with stuff they know nothing about - for example Google - they have dabbled in many things outside of search and come up with zip to date.

Be as impressed as you want - until they have a product to show it is vapor ware.

[kwilcox]

Just like the Tesla model S eh? Just like the Sace X dragon eh? Just like Paypal eh? Trust me Russ, when Elon Musk sets his sights on something, it isn't "Sucker bait".

Disagree that they are phishing for contacts. Solar City has a different business model. You ever don't buy anything from them (see link below). So Its obviously a made to order part of their overall offering at this point in time and if I was living in S. CA then I'd be discussing it with one of their engineers right now. Having a smart storage system is perfect for an AC coupled system such as the SE Conext that can't control charge rate when energy is moving backwards through the inverter.

By announcing nationwide availability soon, they are also obviously deciding to change their business model and sell the system outright.

Lyndon (solarcity CEO) and Peter (solarcity CTO) Rive are Elon Musk's cousins btw.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/05/14/elon-musk-backed-solarcity-thrives-in-solar-power-sector.html

[russ]

Sucker Bait. Right. You should be getting to know me better than that by now. Check out who is the chairman @ solar city.

http://www.solarcity.com/company/team

I would assume these are built to order. Southern CA only fttb... probably until the factory goes online. I'd say its safe to say that Tesla is getting into the residential energy storage business. Hard to believe with only "20 people in WI" to sell to eh?

Kevin - Looked at the list - sucker bait. If they have something then show it with specs - don't just phish for contacts.

Reminds me of the Bloombox - big names and lots of hype for a total loser.

[kwilcox]

Sucker Bait. Right. You should be getting to know me better than that by now. Check out who is the chairman @ solar city.

http://www.solarcity.com/company/team

I would assume these are built to order. Southern CA only fttb... probably until the factory goes online. I'd say its safe to say that Tesla is getting into the residential energy storage business. Hard to believe with only "20 people in WI" to sell to eh?

[SunEagle]

The link is just sucker bait.

Oh I agree with you. There are ways to find out more data on those home battery systems where they give a kWh rating and hint at pricing. I still think they continue to look for investors or at least get a number of pre-orders to help fund their manufacturing.

[russ]

Most of those home battery systems that I have researched will provide less than 5kWh of backup power for a steep price. It is a nice idea and may help off set some peak POCO costs or high Tear rates but it is not really a big power supply and generates power in the $1 to $2/kWh range. It would be cheaper to run a small generator.

The link is just sucker bait.

[SunEagle]

A link that says nothing except they want a cheap lead? If they have anything they should at least say what it is with specs and all.

Most of those home battery systems that I have researched will provide less than 5kWh of backup power for a steep price. It is a nice idea and may help off set some peak POCO costs or high Tear rates but it is not really a big power supply and generates power in the $1 to $2/kWh range. It would be cheaper to run a small generator.

[russ]

Now Tesla:

http://www.solarcity.com/residential/energy-storage

follow the bouncing ball...

A link that says nothing except they want a cheap lead? If they have anything they should at least say what it is with specs and all.

[kwilcox]

Now Tesla:

http://www.solarcity.com/residential/energy-storage

follow the bouncing ball...

[SunEagle]

A lot of angry people - the 20 people in a meeting all carrying on?

You guys with your whining about the utilities are cute. The utility will still be in business and doing well long after you are gone - don't worry about them.

Micro grids a big deal? In the mind of the anarchist lot maybe.

While I feel the pain for kwilcox wanting to get the Utilities to listen and partner with their customers I don't think the threat of disconnecting will bother them that much. The will just sell it to CA or another state the has to import the electricity.

It is almost the same thinking that people had to "hurt" an oil company by not purchasing their gasoline. What they fail to understand is that the US drivers are not the only customer in the world. If said oil company didn't sell their gas to US drivers they would sell it to someone else, even another oil company.

My dad use to work for Exxon. He told me that at least once a week a tanker from a different oil/gas company would fill up with the gasoline produced at the refinery that my dad worked in. I don't know who finally purchased that gas but trust me when I say if you don't buy it from one company someone else will. The US public will never "hurt" an oil company by not purchasing their gasoline. They will continue to make profits in different ways.

[russ]

I hope you're right Russ. I'm not enthusiastic given WE Energies tactics lately though. They're tossing a whole budding new industry out the door with their draconian tactics. If there's a breakthrough, I'm plugging it in and those disenfranchised renewable installers in SE Wisconsin will too. I was deluged with people asking me about storage solutions at the Rate Case meeting. They're in the same boat. I'd rather see WE Energies selling me storage but they want no part of it. Maybe that will change if a real breakthrough happens. But will it be too late then? Will micro grids already be taking off then? There's a lot of angry people in WI who just want to tell the POCO to stick it where the sun doesn't shine (pun intended).

A lot of angry people - the 20 people in a meeting all carrying on?

You guys with your whining about the utilities are cute. The utility will still be in business and doing well long after you are gone - don't worry about them.

Micro grids a big deal? In the mind of the anarchist lot maybe.