New to solar, have bid from Solar City

[KRenn]

You see - I just don't understand how a LEASED system can add any value to a home. It doesn't belong to the homeowner or the property so how can it be sold with the property and thus increase the value? Once you buy out the lease then I can see the value, but that will depend so much on the person buying the property. Like a swimming pool - not everyone will appreciate it and some (like myself) may see it as a liability.

Again- if the salesman is pushing increased home value, I would discount it considerably. Although the 'cheap' option to buy it out after 7 years in the event of selling your home may be a good feature of the lease (if you are leasing anyway). What happens before year 7 if you want to sell your home?

On the prepaid side its possible to add value to the home, I'd be INCREDIBLY skeptical about a monthly lease payment adding any value to the home. On the prepaid front there is the obvious benefit of an existing benefit of service plus the solar system is covered by warranty and insurance...etc, that could be worth real money to someone, however I don't see somebody paying extra to take on essentially an obligation in a monthly lease payment, even worse, I can see an adjustable(escalator) monthly payment being a big negative, a flat monthly lease shouldn't hurt the sale of the home but one that has regular annual increases could be a tremendous hindrance.

[HappyInMa]

I'm just repeating what SunPower is advertising. I honestly don't believe that calculation to be correct. Really? I can add $45,000 to my value of my home and only have to pay half that to do it?

Also, what is the reality of a leased system on a house for sale? Let's say it's 10 years into the lease. How does one appraise something like that? That's why I do like SP's offer in years 7 to 14, for buying the system for cheap and leaving it for the new owner.

You see - I just don't understand how a LEASED system can add any value to a home. It doesn't belong to the homeowner or the property so how can it be sold with the property and thus increase the value? Once you buy out the lease then I can see the value, but that will depend so much on the person buying the property. Like a swimming pool - not everyone will appreciate it and some (like myself) may see it as a liability.

Again- if the salesman is pushing increased home value, I would discount it considerably. Although the 'cheap' option to buy it out after 7 years in the event of selling your home may be a good feature of the lease (if you are leasing anyway). What happens before year 7 if you want to sell your home?

[KRenn]

I 2nd the 2 inverter option your rep should have suggested this, although I think it will increase the price a few hundred. Did you have a 28 327 price? I'm in favor of a larger SP system if you can get it and the main panel upgrade for a good price. If not the 24 SP w/ 2 PO inverters for $23,715 is a good deal but ask them for an even 23k and you will sign now. I shook my magic 8 ball and it said the future looks bright so it will most likely work.

[SoCalsolar]

I 2nd the

I 2nd the 2 inverter option your rep should have suggested this, although I think it will increase the price a few hundred. Did you have a 28 327 price? I'm in favor of a larger SP system if you can get it and the main panel upgrade for a good price. If not the 24 SP w/ 2 PO inverters for $23,715 is a good deal but ask them for an even 23k and you will sign now. I shook my magic 8 ball and it said the future looks bright so it will most likely work.

[KRenn]

This is also my feeling from finetuning their proposal for a 11,8kW system for me. I was offered a Fronius/SMA inverter in the quote with similar kW rating.
However, the install will have 24 E20/327 panels oriented to SSW and 12 to SEE. No shading. From what I have learned on this board due to different orientation
of the panels (by 90 deg in my case), a dual MPPT PowerOne inverter would be desirable for higher production. I looked on the configurator on

http://stringtool.power-one.com/

and saw the Aurora One PVI 12.0-I as a possible candidate but could not find a solution for the 24 panels not be potentially power limited.
In a phone call, the SP rep mentioned possiblity of two Auroras 6.0 (reportedly just a small $$ difference) but still pushed the SMA inverter as capable
for my situation. Note that we have 110F in these days and I read that PowerOne works better in heat. Plus, the site visit installer plans to place the
inverter INSIDE the garage, where we have temps even higher than outside in the summer.
Comments ? Shall I insist on PowerOne inverter(s) ?

System
Year 1 Estimated Production: 21,000 kWh
11.75 kW (DC), 10.35 kW (AC) SunPower System
36 x SunPower E20/327 Solar Panel
1 x SPR-11401f (240V) 11.4kW

Power-One in Arizona is a big plus....absolutely, for your size I would utilize 2 6000 watt Power-One inverters. I also wouldn't recommend the inverter going inside the garage unless you have a dedicated cooling source for it, your installer sounds like they're lost in the sauce just a tad.

[AZstars]

Inverter choice with SunPower

... Sunpower pushes their own rebadged SMA inverter for the lease so not sure if you can substitute a competitor.

This is also my feeling from finetuning their proposal for a 11,8kW system for me. I was offered a Fronius/SMA inverter in the quote with similar kW rating.
However, the install will have 24 E20/327 panels oriented to SSW and 12 to SEE. No shading. From what I have learned on this board due to different orientation
of the panels (by 90 deg in my case), a dual MPPT PowerOne inverter would be desirable for higher production. I looked on the configurator on

http://stringtool.power-one.com/

and saw the Aurora One PVI 12.0-I as a possible candidate but could not find a solution for the 24 panels not be potentially power limited.
In a phone call, the SP rep mentioned possiblity of two Auroras 6.0 (reportedly just a small $$ difference) but still pushed the SMA inverter as capable
for my situation. Note that we have 110F in these days and I read that PowerOne works better in heat. Plus, the site visit installer plans to place the
inverter INSIDE the garage, where we have temps even higher than outside in the summer.
Comments ? Shall I insist on PowerOne inverter(s) ?

System
Year 1 Estimated Production: 21,000 kWh
11.75 kW (DC), 10.35 kW (AC) SunPower System
36 x SunPower E20/327 Solar Panel
1 x SPR-11401f (240V) 11.4kW

[KRenn]

Bite your tongue! NO!

But I did find something interesting just now. The other SunPower guy came out today with his adjusted numbers based on the shade calcs he took over the weekend. I had called him earlier today to ask him for the same thing, give me a quote without the electrical panel replacement as well. So he ran the Sunpower numbers and the funny thing was, if I added the panel replacement to the prepay lease, it bumped up the lease by $2000. So he suggested we do the lease without the panel, and they would do the panel on the side for $1200.
So this SP guy had originally quoted me a 7.8kwh 24 of the 327's panel system with the SMA 7000 inverter, without elec panel replacement, without shade calcs, at $22,436.
This system was guaranteed to produce 12,545kwh. With the shade factored now, the new price, without elec panel replacement is $22,515 and is guaranteed to only produce 11,409kwh. So with the extra $1200, I'm paying 23,715 for the whole kit and kaboodle.
I also asked him about using the Power One 6000 inverter. Since the proposed system is a 7.8kwh system, he wondered at first whether I'd be losing out on those peak sunny days when the inverter wouldn't be able to handle the load. But he ran the numbers anyways and there really is no price difference between the 2 inverters, maybe a bit less for Power One actually. But of course the Power One would be helping me out more in the winter when I get dinged with shade. The numbers came out pretty close as to which one would do better overall, with Power One edging the SMA a bit. It's too bad Power One doesn't have a 7000 model yet.

For comparison, I have the RealGoods solar bid with a 9.5kw system using Canadian Power panels, 40 of them I believe, using Enphase microinverters, and guaranteeing 12,965kwh production. That bid, with panel replacement, comes to $28,016.

So, $23,715 for 11,409kwh, OR , $28,016 for $12965kwh? Shading has been accounted for in both of these. Or should I just go Fish?

With the Power-One you typically want to double up inverters, if it's a 7.8 kilowatt system I'd recommend utilizing 2 3.6kw inverter's for a total of 7.2 kilowatts.

[Rockit31]

That increased value formula is a bit exaggerated in my view. It's based off of a study from Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory. It was conducted between 2001-2009? Kind of a wild time for housing and it was done on homes in CA. With the price of solar decreasing so much that study needs to be updated at least I can't imagine in ten years you would be able to find a a buyer to pay you 40% more than you paid for a used solar system. Does it add value intuitively I would say yes as far as a dollar amount every buyer is different. I might pay 3-5 years worth of it's production. Anyone else have thoughts on how much more they would pay for Rocks house with solar on it?

I'm just repeating what SunPower is advertising. I honestly don't believe that calculation to be correct. Really? I can add $45,000 to my value of my home and only have to pay half that to do it?

Also, what is the reality of a leased system on a house for sale? Let's say it's 10 years into the lease. How does one appraise something like that? That's why I do like SP's offer in years 7 to 14, for buying the system for cheap and leaving it for the new owner.

[SoCalsolar]

That increased value formula is

That increased value formula is a bit exaggerated in my view. It's based off of a study from Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory. It was conducted between 2001-2009? Kind of a wild time for housing and it was done on homes in CA. With the price of solar decreasing so much that study needs to be updated at least I can't imagine in ten years you would be able to find a a buyer to pay you 40% more than you paid for a used solar system. Does it add value intuitively I would say yes as far as a dollar amount every buyer is different. I might pay 3-5 years worth of it's production. Anyone else have thoughts on how much more they would pay for Rocks house with solar on it?

[russ]

Happy is exactly correct - If the prospective buyer wants solar and it is a sellers market then there may be an increase in value.

If the buyer isn't interested in solar or it is a buyers market then the value addition will probably nil or even negative.

[HappyInMa]

I also like what Sunpower offers in the way of transferring the system to a new owner. From years 7 to 14, I can buy the whole system for $684, that is, if I'm selling the house. Pretty sweet. The new owner gets a bought and paid for system then.

Also, they showed me a chart of the true value of a system on a house. They said it's worth approx. $5500 for every DC KWH of the size. So for instance in my case, 7.8khw x $5500 would be the value I could add to my house if I choose to sell.

I'd be really careful about this whole "solar system adds to the value of the house" argument. I've had my house appraised twice (refinance) since my system has been installed. The first appraiser was totally clueless and didn't even describe the solar system correctly in the report (thought it had something to do with reducing heating costs). The second did a much better job - asked the right questions, even got into details on the SREC income and then looked for other systems with solar in the area that had sold recently. Bottom line, however, is that there really wasn't a noticeable change in value due to the solar on the roof - and I don't even have the complication of it being a lease. I'm sure that the extra value SHOULD be there, and that the 'industry experts' have some great ways of justifying the increase, but until actual real buyers start saying "I'll pay extra for that solar on the roof" we won't really see the increase in property values.

[Rockit31]

Going with the Real Goods, you'd pay 18% more for 14% more guaranteed energy. Do you still need an electrical panel replacement with the lower power quote? What if your installer goes belly-up? Who does the maintenance? Hey Sunpower is an AMERICAN company and it's almost the 4th of July so I think you know whom to choose!

both bids include the cost of the panel replacement. I'm liking Sunpower more and more. If the local installer goes belly up, I don't care much with Sunpower. My lease is with Sunpower. Now with the RealGoods company, same thing I suppose if the local guy goes belly up, but I don't think RealGoods is as strong as SP. They are publicly traded but their stock has been on a pretty serious slide over the last year.

All of this solar hunting has made me think of another option. Moving! No , serious, I like my home enough, but if I do this, I'm committing myself to stay for at least another 10 years I suppose.

I also like what Sunpower offers in the way of transferring the system to a new owner. From years 7 to 14, I can buy the whole system for $684, that is, if I'm selling the house. Pretty sweet. The new owner gets a bought and paid for system then.

Also, they showed me a chart of the true value of a system on a house. They said it's worth approx. $5500 for every DC KWH of the size. So for instance in my case, 7.8khw x $5500 would be the value I could add to my house if I choose to sell.

[Ian S]

Bite your tongue! NO!

But I did find something interesting just now. The other SunPower guy came out today with his adjusted numbers based on the shade calcs he took over the weekend. I had called him earlier today to ask him for the same thing, give me a quote without the electrical panel replacement as well. So he ran the Sunpower numbers and the funny thing was, if I added the panel replacement to the prepay lease, it bumped up the lease by $2000. So he suggested we do the lease without the panel, and they would do the panel on the side for $1200.
So this SP guy had originally quoted me a 7.8kwh 24 of the 327's panel system with the SMA 7000 inverter, without elec panel replacement, without shade calcs, at $22,436.
This system was guaranteed to produce 12,545kwh. With the shade factored now, the new price, without elec panel replacement is $22,515 and is guaranteed to only produce 11,409kwh. So with the extra $1200, I'm paying 23,715 for the whole kit and kaboodle.
I also asked him about using the Power One 6000 inverter. Since the proposed system is a 7.8kwh system, he wondered at first whether I'd be losing out on those peak sunny days when the inverter wouldn't be able to handle the load. But he ran the numbers anyways and there really is no price difference between the 2 inverters, maybe a bit less for Power One actually. But of course the Power One would be helping me out more in the winter when I get dinged with shade. The numbers came out pretty close as to which one would do better overall, with Power One edging the SMA a bit. It's too bad Power One doesn't have a 7000 model yet.

For comparison, I have the RealGoods solar bid with a 9.5kw system using Canadian Power panels, 40 of them I believe, using Enphase microinverters, and guaranteeing 12,965kwh production. That bid, with panel replacement, comes to $28,016.

So, $23,715 for 11,409kwh, OR , $28,016 for $12965kwh? Shading has been accounted for in both of these. Or should I just go Fish?

Going with the Real Goods, you'd pay 18% more for 14% more guaranteed energy. Do you still need an electrical panel replacement with the lower power quote? What if your installer goes belly-up? Who does the maintenance? Hey Sunpower is an AMERICAN company and it's almost the 4th of July so I think you know whom to choose!

[Rockit31]

So he'd be leasing his new electrical panel?

Bite your tongue! NO!

But I did find something interesting just now. The other SunPower guy came out today with his adjusted numbers based on the shade calcs he took over the weekend. I had called him earlier today to ask him for the same thing, give me a quote without the electrical panel replacement as well. So he ran the Sunpower numbers and the funny thing was, if I added the panel replacement to the prepay lease, it bumped up the lease by $2000. So he suggested we do the lease without the panel, and they would do the panel on the side for $1200.
So this SP guy had originally quoted me a 7.8kwh 24 of the 327's panel system with the SMA 7000 inverter, without elec panel replacement, without shade calcs, at $22,436.
This system was guaranteed to produce 12,545kwh. With the shade factored now, the new price, without elec panel replacement is $22,515 and is guaranteed to only produce 11,409kwh. So with the extra $1200, I'm paying 23,715 for the whole kit and kaboodle.
I also asked him about using the Power One 6000 inverter. Since the proposed system is a 7.8kwh system, he wondered at first whether I'd be losing out on those peak sunny days when the inverter wouldn't be able to handle the load. But he ran the numbers anyways and there really is no price difference between the 2 inverters, maybe a bit less for Power One actually. But of course the Power One would be helping me out more in the winter when I get dinged with shade. The numbers came out pretty close as to which one would do better overall, with Power One edging the SMA a bit. It's too bad Power One doesn't have a 7000 model yet.

For comparison, I have the RealGoods solar bid with a 9.5kw system using Canadian Power panels, 40 of them I believe, using Enphase microinverters, and guaranteeing 12,965kwh production. That bid, with panel replacement, comes to $28,016.

So, $23,715 for 11,409kwh, OR , $28,016 for $12965kwh? Shading has been accounted for in both of these. Or should I just go Fish?

[Ian S]

That's pretty straightforward. Your overall price on a system might be $50,000 if it was a direct purchase but the prepaid price might be $25,000, if you tack $2000 on to the purchase price it would add about $1000 to the prepaid price you'd be paying.

So he'd be leasing his new electrical panel?