Solar Lease on New Build in Phoenix

[KRenn]

Check with your utility & code officer, sometimes after 10 KW of generation, you fall into a different class, and more rules and BS apply.

Doesn't apply to APS as long as you generate under 125% of your use. There are quite a few around the US that really try to hammer you or reduce compensation at increasing levels of size.

[Mike90250]

Check with your utility & code officer, sometimes after 10 KW of generation, you fall into a different class, and more rules and BS apply.

[kazpilot25]

K thanks everyone. Looks like the standard plan will be best for me.

[Ian S]

If I'm on the time of use plan, it's my understanding that the on peak and off peak kWh accumulate in separate "banks" in my APS account and off peak usage will only draw from the off peak "bank" and visa versa. Then say, once the off peak balance is depleted, I will be charged for that off peak usage even though I have a full bank of on peak output in my bank.

Yes, but at the end of the year, you will be paid for the unused on-peak you've banked at a rate that should in effect offset what you've paid for off-peak.

If I were to use the standard rate plan would I be able to avoid being charged if I use up all off peak output? I ask because approx. 80% of our usage has been off peak, and I don't want to pay APS if I don't have to.

There is no peak or off-peak with the standard plan. If you will produce excess in the year over what you use, then the standard rate plan would be cheaper as Krenn says.

[KRenn]

Interesting tidbit of info. Frankly, I half expected that to happen to me. The Sunpower contract is clear in permitting that by either side after 6 months if the install is not complete. Ultimately, as I understand it, Sunpower will be responsible for system maintenance even if the installer goes belly-up. I would also say that Sunpower provided me with a statement saying the delay was solely their responsibility.

When I first started looking into this a year ago, everyone was saying to make sure solar companies you go with have been around for awhile. I went with my installer based on the length of time they'd been doing solar and the recommendation of a personal friend of mine who had a great experience with them over two years ago. Now it seems the newer upstarts may have the upper hand.

Volume is everything in the solar industry today. You might have done 1000 installs over the years but if you're not doing a couple dozen a month right now you're not going to survive long-term. There's older installers like Namaste in Colorado AND Sun Light and Power in California who are doing great but for those who allowed themselves be complacent, they're going to get crushed by the super-aggressive ones, that goes for installers and manufacturers. You're going to see the vast majority of solar manufacturers gone in the next 5 years and only companies that can distinguish themselves and offer unique-type products will make it.

I do feel that Sun power has distinguished itself due to its unique panels. I do think the biggest shakedown will occur in China as I think you'll see companies like LDK and Jinko end up getting crushed while mainstays such as Suntech and Trina hold on. Its certainly not going to be a dull time in this industry.

[Ian S]

It just depends on the company, your installer took substantially longer to get your system up and I have a hard time believing that is all due to Sun power, especially since my neighbor got the same kind of lease and was up and running about 3 months before you. I'd be less skeptical if that same installer wasn't now cutting customers loose from their contracts because they won't be able to install their systems in time before the incentive reservations expire.

Interesting tidbit of info. Frankly, I half expected that to happen to me. The Sunpower contract is clear in permitting that by either side after 6 months if the install is not complete. Ultimately, as I understand it, Sunpower will be responsible for system maintenance even if the installer goes belly-up. I would also say that Sunpower provided me with a statement saying the delay was solely their responsibility.

When I first started looking into this a year ago, everyone was saying to make sure solar companies you go with have been around for awhile. I went with my installer based on the length of time they'd been doing solar and the recommendation of a personal friend of mine who had a great experience with them over two years ago. Now it seems the newer upstarts may have the upper hand.

[KRenn]

Ya I had estimated it at around $200 a month on average. The builder has an APS brochure that says it's approximately $188, so I figure I'll be slightly above that as I have a second fridge in the garage, and run my AC a little cooler than 78 at nights. I think I'm going with the 13 kW system, just based on the fact that the additional output at the lower rate is well worth it to me.

If I'm on the time of use plan, it's my understanding that the on peak and off peak kWh accumulate in separate "banks" in my APS account and off peak usage will only draw from the off peak "bank" and visa versa. Then say, once the off peak balance is depleted, I will be charged for that off peak usage even though I have a full bank of on peak output in my bank. If I were to use the standard rate plan would I be able to avoid being charged if I use up all off peak output? I ask because approx. 80% of our usage has been off peak, and I don't want to pay APS if I don't have to.

Since you'll have excess, go with the general plan, lower monthly fees too.

[kazpilot25]

Ya I had estimated it at around $200 a month on average. The builder has an APS brochure that says it's approximately $188, so I figure I'll be slightly above that as I have a second fridge in the garage, and run my AC a little cooler than 78 at nights. I think I'm going with the 13 kW system, just based on the fact that the additional output at the lower rate is well worth it to me.

If I'm on the time of use plan, it's my understanding that the on peak and off peak kWh accumulate in separate "banks" in my APS account and off peak usage will only draw from the off peak "bank" and visa versa. Then say, once the off peak balance is depleted, I will be charged for that off peak usage even though I have a full bank of on peak output in my bank. If I were to use the standard rate plan would I be able to avoid being charged if I use up all off peak output? I ask because approx. 80% of our usage has been off peak, and I don't want to pay APS if I don't have to.

[KRenn]

Everyone's great at the beginning. LOL! It took over seven months from my Sunpower lease signing until installation was complete. The holdup apparently was on the Sunpower end and not my installer's fault. We even had to apply for an extension of the APS rebate reservation. Fortunately, commissioning was compete within a week or so of completion of the project and that's with an initial denial by the city inspector who didn't like the way my old house was grounded. Everything seems to be working Perfect-ly now.

It just depends on the company, your installer took substantially longer to get your system up and I have a hard time believing that is all due to Sun power, especially since my neighbor got the same kind of lease and was up and running about 3 months before you. I'd be less skeptical if that same installer wasn't now cutting customers loose from their contracts because they won't be able to install their systems in time before the incentive reservations expire.



It'll be interesting to see when APS rebates drop to $0.10 a watt or less, there's several companies who are barely viable now, and will have to either close shop or move on to something else as they simply won't be able to keep up. Timing is everything and the companies that are booming right now started peaking at just the right time without having expanded to too much overhead. Tucson is the same, its extremely competitive and some of the older, more traditional companies are fighting to stay in existence against some newer, leaner and meaner competition.

[Ian S]

Supposedly they're one of the topps in Arizona . Are they a good company? Good reputation? They have been very good thus far, but it's only the beginning.

Everyone's great at the beginning. LOL! It took over seven months from my Sunpower lease signing until installation was complete. The holdup apparently was on the Sunpower end and not my installer's fault. We even had to apply for an extension of the APS rebate reservation. Fortunately, commissioning was compete within a week or so of completion of the project and that's with an initial denial by the city inspector who didn't like the way my old house was grounded. Everything seems to be working Perfect-ly now.

[KRenn]

Production is no problem but estimating the consumption in a new larger but more efficient home is where I am falling short. Assuming they are taking all their current devices, electronics and appliances and not adding any new ones more efficeint AC the consumption could be less? If they add more devices etc.. the bill could go up. The baseline on their current home seems to be about or less than 1000kwhr a month with the summer months increasing presumably due to increased AC. If I were to do this and not want to calculate the consumption for every device that draws power in the home I would at least calculate the AC since it accounts for about a 600 kWhr increase over your normal usage. You seem to have the numbers for the new AC unit run them and see what the electrical draw is per hour. Estimate how many hours a day multiply by the 5 summer months if last year was a typical summer. Assuming this isn't a custom build, find a house of the same model and find out what their usage is. As far as the pool goes run numbers on whatever pump you are looking at find out the average hours you will need to run it. Am I missing something on estimating the usage aspect of it? Remember I am a solar knucklehead.

General rule of thumb for APS utility. 2700 sq feet=$2400-2700 annual electric bill. In Arizona you have a major fixed cost in A/C which you HAVE to use, this determines the majority of annual electric use. Even in an efficient home, with that many square feet I would plan on an average of $200 monthly in electric costs. The 11.7 is big enough to cover that with a little excess, but for another $14 a month you get substantially better production that will offset the addition of pool which in Arizona, will cost you quite a bit more than $14 a month. It is not unusual for bills to increase by 15-20% with the addition of the pool.

[KRenn]

Supposedly they're one of the topps in Arizona . Are they a good company? Good reputation? They have been very good thus far, but it's only the beginning.

Yeah, newer company, very high-quality installations and they seem to be doing more volume than anyone else in Arizona besides SolarCity right now. As far as pricing, I don't think anybody else is legitimately coming close to their numbers. It seems like the old-guard solar installers who have been around for 10+ years are really bleeding and struggling and some of the upstart installers like yours are finding more ways to be competitive.

[SoCalsolar]

Production no problem

Production is no problem but estimating the consumption in a new larger but more efficient home is where I am falling short. Assuming they are taking all their current devices, electronics and appliances and not adding any new ones more efficeint AC the consumption could be less? If they add more devices etc.. the bill could go up. The baseline on their current home seems to be about or less than 1000kwhr a month with the summer months increasing presumably due to increased AC. If I were to do this and not want to calculate the consumption for every device that draws power in the home I would at least calculate the AC since it accounts for about a 600 kWhr increase over your normal usage. You seem to have the numbers for the new AC unit run them and see what the electrical draw is per hour. Estimate how many hours a day multiply by the 5 summer months if last year was a typical summer. Assuming this isn't a custom build, find a house of the same model and find out what their usage is. As far as the pool goes run numbers on whatever pump you are looking at find out the average hours you will need to run it. Am I missing something on estimating the usage aspect of it? Remember I am a solar knucklehead.

[Ian S]

I want the system to offset 100% and then some, so we'll have additional to run a pool in the future. I figured since APS will buy it back, that should be ok. I've been quoted $97 for a 10Kw system, $110 for an 11.7kW system, and $127 for a 13.1kW system. They are all $0 money down, no escalators, and are all SunPower leases.

I appreciate any input as I have no idea how much we will use. If we go with the 13.1kW system, will that be too much that APS won't even buy it all back?

First of all, a simple calculation yields the following cost/month/kW: $9.69 for the 13.1 kW system, $9.40 for the 11.7kW system, and $9.70 for the 10 kW system. Oddly, that has the midsize system cheapest compared to the largest and smallest. In that respect, the midsize system is the most cost-effective. It also seems to me, that your biggest bang on the 7-noon plan comes from generating enough power to eliminate all your peak charges. After that the returns are diminished as you're only "earning" about $0.06 per kWh. Even if you later add a pool, it's probably possible to have most of the pool's energy draw in the non-peak hours. Also, do you have gas heat or heat pump? I have gas heat in a 2230 sq. ft. home in central Phoenix and used 19,000 kWh last year. However, this is an ca. 1969 block construction home all on one level with minimal insulation apart from a foam roof. It also has a large expanse of floor to ceiling single pane glass along with six slider doors. So pretty energy-inefficient. We also keep the temp about the same as you do. So I wonder if you really would use much more energy than ours.

[kazpilot25]

Supposedly they're one of the topps in Arizona . Are they a good company? Good reputation? They have been very good thus far, but it's only the beginning.